Live Use with Classic Rock Band
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- KVRian
- 524 posts since 25 Aug, 2005
I use B4ii for organ (Axiom 61 upper manual for control) and Lounge Lizard for Rhodes/Wurli. Used to use mr. Ray 2.2, excellent free EP. For piano, I load Colossus and use the Steinway. My brass section is one of two - for single lines with performance articulations, I use Garritan Jazz and Big Band. For ensembles, I use sfz with a soundfont I created from a Giga library of Memphis Horns. Does the trumpet/tenor unison thing beautifully. I still have plenty of memory left for a couple other plugs (Rev C 2G)
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- KVRian
- 691 posts since 13 May, 2004 from Silicon Valley
Hi Will,
OK - There's a bunch to report here. I did run into upper limits on Receptor Pro (probably Receptor in general - with the current RAM constraints).
There are a number of scenarios that I tried out, different than previous tests.
Note: I did not optimize any streaming parameters in Kontakt. I used medium buffers in Ivory.
Scenario 1:
Ivory, IG, largest preset (12v layer)
Scarbee RSP73 12v 24 bit (kontakt reports requires 1.46 gig)
KAB - loaded 8 slots of stacked brass samples, ~450 meg.
This would not load into Receptor. In fact, you need to be careful what order you load each vsti:
(if you load KAB last, it will recover with a dialog saying "not enough RAM available". if you load Kontakt/Scarbee last, kontakt will use up whatever RAM it can grab while loading, and then crash/freeze Receptor (BIG BUG in Kontakt).
Scenario 2 (stacked on same MIDI channel):
Ivory, IG, largest preset (12v layer)
Scarbee RSP73 12v 24 bit (kontakt reports requires 1.46 gig)
Ivory/Scarbee will both load under the RAM limit, and seem to have enough RAM leftover for streaming, I suspect that the disk doesn't have enough throughput for streaming. This was evidenced by few (infrequent) buzzing, and 'disk' indicators showing up on Ivory. (I'm guessing the buzzing was happening from Kontakt - it seems more prone to resource shortages than Ivory).
Scenario 3
Same as [2], + KAB, custom 4slot section, stacked on same MIDI channel
Performed same as [2]. To be expected since I'm guessing the disk is more at issue than the RAM
Scenario 4
Same as [3], Each in their own non-overlapping zone on the keyboard
Performed better than [2]. I think I only heard a buzz once.
I also tried various 'reduced' scenarios for Ivory and Kontakt (eg. using lite programs and fewer velocity layers). This improved things, with very little impact on the overall sound.
I expect that one could add more compute intensive plugs (eg lounge-lizard, Arturia plugs, ...) without much impact since they aren't hitting up the disk.
My conclusion is that with multiple 'disk streaming' plugs, and with the largest sample sets, you will start running into disk limitations. You can scale back fairly minimally without much sonic impact. Also, when you don't stack streaming plugs on the same MIDI channel, things get better too.
Hope this helps you.
Regards,
Kevin L
PS. some quick notes about KAB
As previously mentioned, it is a ROMpler that runs strictly out of RAM. Rather than having keyswitching to change articulations, it allows you to put articulated sample sets on different 'slots' (addressed by different MIDI channels. Likewise, you can build up sections by putting different instruments on different slots, all assigned to the same MIDI channel.
OK - There's a bunch to report here. I did run into upper limits on Receptor Pro (probably Receptor in general - with the current RAM constraints).
There are a number of scenarios that I tried out, different than previous tests.
Note: I did not optimize any streaming parameters in Kontakt. I used medium buffers in Ivory.
Scenario 1:
Ivory, IG, largest preset (12v layer)
Scarbee RSP73 12v 24 bit (kontakt reports requires 1.46 gig)
KAB - loaded 8 slots of stacked brass samples, ~450 meg.
This would not load into Receptor. In fact, you need to be careful what order you load each vsti:
(if you load KAB last, it will recover with a dialog saying "not enough RAM available". if you load Kontakt/Scarbee last, kontakt will use up whatever RAM it can grab while loading, and then crash/freeze Receptor (BIG BUG in Kontakt).
Scenario 2 (stacked on same MIDI channel):
Ivory, IG, largest preset (12v layer)
Scarbee RSP73 12v 24 bit (kontakt reports requires 1.46 gig)
Ivory/Scarbee will both load under the RAM limit, and seem to have enough RAM leftover for streaming, I suspect that the disk doesn't have enough throughput for streaming. This was evidenced by few (infrequent) buzzing, and 'disk' indicators showing up on Ivory. (I'm guessing the buzzing was happening from Kontakt - it seems more prone to resource shortages than Ivory).
Scenario 3
Same as [2], + KAB, custom 4slot section, stacked on same MIDI channel
Performed same as [2]. To be expected since I'm guessing the disk is more at issue than the RAM
Scenario 4
Same as [3], Each in their own non-overlapping zone on the keyboard
Performed better than [2]. I think I only heard a buzz once.
I also tried various 'reduced' scenarios for Ivory and Kontakt (eg. using lite programs and fewer velocity layers). This improved things, with very little impact on the overall sound.
I expect that one could add more compute intensive plugs (eg lounge-lizard, Arturia plugs, ...) without much impact since they aren't hitting up the disk.
My conclusion is that with multiple 'disk streaming' plugs, and with the largest sample sets, you will start running into disk limitations. You can scale back fairly minimally without much sonic impact. Also, when you don't stack streaming plugs on the same MIDI channel, things get better too.
Hope this helps you.
Regards,
Kevin L
PS. some quick notes about KAB
As previously mentioned, it is a ROMpler that runs strictly out of RAM. Rather than having keyswitching to change articulations, it allows you to put articulated sample sets on different 'slots' (addressed by different MIDI channels. Likewise, you can build up sections by putting different instruments on different slots, all assigned to the same MIDI channel.
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- KVRian
- 691 posts since 13 May, 2004 from Silicon Valley
Hi Dasher,
Great idea about Memphis Horns. I have that set, but never thought about building a multi from them. Was it difficult? Was pitch changing 'natural' between the chromatic samples?
Thanks,
Kevin L
Great idea about Memphis Horns. I have that set, but never thought about building a multi from them. Was it difficult? Was pitch changing 'natural' between the chromatic samples?
Thanks,
Kevin L
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- KVRist
- 173 posts since 3 Sep, 2007 from CT
It might be worth noting that Scarbee recommends the 16-bit samples for live and the 24-bit for studio.
Last weekend I loaded Ivory, NI's Electrik Piano, B4 II, Pro-53, Absynth, and a stock Kontakt string sample into Midi channel 1 full keyboard without any trouble. I used modulation but didn't do any peddling. I didn't notice any voice issues. I'll try it again this weekend with the Scarbee 16-bits and push it a little.
I think the standard conclusion is that the best state of the art sounds like Italian Grand, Akoustik, Scarbee 24-bit, etc are best loaded alone for solo work. They are too resource intensive for complex ensembles. At minimum if they are layered the layered plugs need to be liteweight.
I'll try the David foster thing with IG, NIs EPS and Kontakt stock stings again. I though that loaded fine.
Last weekend I loaded Ivory, NI's Electrik Piano, B4 II, Pro-53, Absynth, and a stock Kontakt string sample into Midi channel 1 full keyboard without any trouble. I used modulation but didn't do any peddling. I didn't notice any voice issues. I'll try it again this weekend with the Scarbee 16-bits and push it a little.
I think the standard conclusion is that the best state of the art sounds like Italian Grand, Akoustik, Scarbee 24-bit, etc are best loaded alone for solo work. They are too resource intensive for complex ensembles. At minimum if they are layered the layered plugs need to be liteweight.
I'll try the David foster thing with IG, NIs EPS and Kontakt stock stings again. I though that loaded fine.
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- KVRist
- 39 posts since 4 Jul, 2007
Thanks for all the effort, Kevin. After reading your post, I had the same thought as Rich.
I meant to say Ivory, not Italian Grand, so I understand how it could be very difficult to play another disk intensive plug on top of IG.
Also, I loaded up the 16bit Scarbee version instead of the 24 bit so that probably gives me significant higher efficiency.
Given your results, when I install IG I will most likely just use it for solo playing as I'm very happy with the standard Ivory Steinway for live use.
Thanks again for taking the time to make these tests.
Best,
Will
I meant to say Ivory, not Italian Grand, so I understand how it could be very difficult to play another disk intensive plug on top of IG.
Also, I loaded up the 16bit Scarbee version instead of the 24 bit so that probably gives me significant higher efficiency.
Given your results, when I install IG I will most likely just use it for solo playing as I'm very happy with the standard Ivory Steinway for live use.
Thanks again for taking the time to make these tests.
Best,
Will
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 45 posts since 30 Jul, 2007
Got my Receptor today. Hooray! Kick Ass Brass is on order. I'm a bit confused after reading the instructions on how to install it as unsupported on the receptor. Do I have to install it on my pc first? Will the license migrate over, or will I have to deal with the manufacturer? What about the library? How should I load it and will KAB find it on the receptor? I'm pretty computer savvy, but this seems very confusing. Any step by step help would be greatly appreciated.
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- KVRian
- 691 posts since 13 May, 2004 from Silicon Valley
Hi Andy,
You should install *BUT NOT AUTHORIZE* on the PC. Then, install KAB via the unsupported method. When this is done, you should be able to launch KAB, and get the Machine ID. You email this ID, along with the serial ID (in your KAB documentation) to AMG. 'Matt 8 )' will email you the unlock code, which you should be able to enter. Once this is authorized, you should be able to load sections and run with it.
I don't recall anything special about the unsupported install.
In general, to do an unsupported install, you copy all of a VSTi's files from a PC installation into a specific folder on your receptor (something like C:/program files/VSTi Plugins/unsupported Plugs/AMG/KAB). Then you flip to Receptor GUI's System Tab, and press a button to load unsupported plugins.
Hope this helps,
Kevin L
You should install *BUT NOT AUTHORIZE* on the PC. Then, install KAB via the unsupported method. When this is done, you should be able to launch KAB, and get the Machine ID. You email this ID, along with the serial ID (in your KAB documentation) to AMG. 'Matt 8 )' will email you the unlock code, which you should be able to enter. Once this is authorized, you should be able to load sections and run with it.
I don't recall anything special about the unsupported install.
In general, to do an unsupported install, you copy all of a VSTi's files from a PC installation into a specific folder on your receptor (something like C:/program files/VSTi Plugins/unsupported Plugs/AMG/KAB). Then you flip to Receptor GUI's System Tab, and press a button to load unsupported plugins.
Hope this helps,
Kevin L
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 45 posts since 30 Jul, 2007
Hi Kevin- and everyone else,
One last question- Where do you put the sample library? Does it go in a subdirectory with the installer on the receptor? I'm assuming KAB installs on windows with several subdirectories that includes the library, samples, banks or patches. Would I keep the file structure the same and drag it all to C:/program files/VSTi Plugins/unsupported Plugs/AMG/KAB/
Thanks,
Andy
One last question- Where do you put the sample library? Does it go in a subdirectory with the installer on the receptor? I'm assuming KAB installs on windows with several subdirectories that includes the library, samples, banks or patches. Would I keep the file structure the same and drag it all to C:/program files/VSTi Plugins/unsupported Plugs/AMG/KAB/
Thanks,
Andy
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- KVRian
- 691 posts since 13 May, 2004 from Silicon Valley
Hi Andy,
Looking at my File System, I think I was a bit more organized than I originally thought.
The answer is that you can put the sample banks anywhere in the file system, and all other install files in an unsupported directory as above. It doesn't really matter where you place the sample dir because you can change the path to it from the plugin (it is a text field on the back panel of the plug, just above where it displays the machine ID).
For me, I put the samples into:
C:\Samples\AMG Kick Ass Brass
and after I installed KAB, I loaded it onto a Receptor Channel, typed in the Auth Key, then brought up the back panel and set the library path to the KAB samples dir.
Regards,
Kevin L
Looking at my File System, I think I was a bit more organized than I originally thought.
The answer is that you can put the sample banks anywhere in the file system, and all other install files in an unsupported directory as above. It doesn't really matter where you place the sample dir because you can change the path to it from the plugin (it is a text field on the back panel of the plug, just above where it displays the machine ID).
For me, I put the samples into:
C:\Samples\AMG Kick Ass Brass
and after I installed KAB, I loaded it onto a Receptor Channel, typed in the Auth Key, then brought up the back panel and set the library path to the KAB samples dir.
Regards,
Kevin L