As far as "learning some theory" goes, there are basically three things one should have a firm understanding of in order to successfully aproach soloing:
1. The I-IV-V chord progression
2. The ii-V7-I chord progression
3. The concept of "Relative Maj/Min"
The first two will enable you to recognize keys very quickly, without having to rely on the key signature alone (important for styles which modulate a lot like jazz). The third will enable you to make good decisions for scale choice; it is often more desireable to use a minor scale or pentatonic over a Major chord progression, especially in rock i.e. Am over C Maj or Em over G Maj.
I suppose the other big ingredient then is knowing your basic Major/Minor/Pentatonic scales in all keys on your instrument...
what scale for the solo based on chord progression
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- KVRist
- 407 posts since 23 Oct, 2006 from Northern New England
+1 for these -- all good tips. I might add two others:jamester wrote:As far as "learning some theory" goes, there are basically three things one should have a firm understanding of in order to successfully aproach soloing:
1. The I-IV-V chord progression
2. The ii-V7-I chord progression
3. The concept of "Relative Maj/Min"
The first two will enable you to recognize keys very quickly, without having to rely on the key signature alone (important for styles which modulate a lot like jazz). The third will enable you to make good decisions for scale choice; it is often more desireable to use a minor scale or pentatonic over a Major chord progression, especially in rock i.e. Am over C Maj or Em over G Maj.
I suppose the other big ingredient then is knowing your basic Major/Minor/Pentatonic scales in all keys on your instrument...
4. Know the way scales are formed (i.e., the intervals between notes) in the style you're working in. In other words, know that (for example) a major scale is formed by in whole (W) and half (H) steps: W W H W W H. Thus, starting on C: C (W) D (W) E (H) F (W) G (W) A (W) B (H) C'. Minor scale: W H W W H W, or A B C D E F G A'. This helps you move scales around to each key -- particularly useful for guitarists, but it's knowledge worth having for others as well.
5. Understand the relationship of the traditional modes to the major scale (and/or, if you're into jazz, the modes of the melodic minor ascending scale. E.g., the C major scale is equivalent* to C ionian, D dorian, E phrygian, F lydian, G mixolydian, A aolian, B locrian. This concept opens up a whole world of different was to think about soloing (not to mention music generally).
*Note: talking about enharmonic equivalence, in equal tempered tuning, just for those of you who are music history inclined!
"Enough Spyro Gyra and you're hoping you'll be killed in a knife fight."
-- Chris in the morning
-- Chris in the morning
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- KVRAF
- 6826 posts since 20 Jan, 2008
While it's a wonderful theory of knowing the relation of note by interval.
Learning to write/improvise based on soley theory is like learning to swim by reading a book.
The short and the quick is learn scale patterns, arpeggios and most especially learn songs so you can learn from thier treatment.
Recently I was re aquianted with a former teacher. We had a little 2 hour jam session. One rule,,, no blues.
We both had biab. and both had roughy 2000 songs in biab format(all styles). He was awestruck on how easily and smoothly I could jam over any song he thru at me.
Most of which I had never played before.
He laid out the basics to me more then 20 years previous.
See the chord, play the chord (arpeggio), play over the chord(mode pattern, lick), connect to the next chord. after awhile you'll easliy be able to develop melodic phrasing either in context to an existing song or in context to writing your own. When listening to music on the radio people remember the melody. It's how they identify the song. melodic phrasing is based on both note selection and meter. Both are important as where the note falls gives life to the piece.
Jamming live with pro's is the best and hardest education one can ever get.
Hardest because they are not thier to advise you. Either you get good or you get out. Usually when they do take the time to do so it's after a lackluster performance by you so the crowd knows you flubbed the band isn't exactly happy you couldn't cut the mustard. But if you are persistant you'll get your chops down much faster then sitting at home with a metronome or midi file.
The live jazz jams have almost become a thing of the distant past. (although there are still blues jams)
If you want to learn how to improvise, or write, Pick up Band in A Box
find some biab files. mute the melody/solo and try to write/play over the progresson.
And/or
Select a style, use the chord builder to mark/generate the chord progression.
Then try to build a melody based on the progression you have entered.
While not a perfect arrangement from scratch (play chords, go back play bassline go back play drums, go back play melody) It will get you in the door
and give you a quick scratch pad to work out your ideas.
-tapper mike
Learning to write/improvise based on soley theory is like learning to swim by reading a book.
The short and the quick is learn scale patterns, arpeggios and most especially learn songs so you can learn from thier treatment.
Recently I was re aquianted with a former teacher. We had a little 2 hour jam session. One rule,,, no blues.
We both had biab. and both had roughy 2000 songs in biab format(all styles). He was awestruck on how easily and smoothly I could jam over any song he thru at me.
Most of which I had never played before.
He laid out the basics to me more then 20 years previous.
See the chord, play the chord (arpeggio), play over the chord(mode pattern, lick), connect to the next chord. after awhile you'll easliy be able to develop melodic phrasing either in context to an existing song or in context to writing your own. When listening to music on the radio people remember the melody. It's how they identify the song. melodic phrasing is based on both note selection and meter. Both are important as where the note falls gives life to the piece.
Jamming live with pro's is the best and hardest education one can ever get.
Hardest because they are not thier to advise you. Either you get good or you get out. Usually when they do take the time to do so it's after a lackluster performance by you so the crowd knows you flubbed the band isn't exactly happy you couldn't cut the mustard. But if you are persistant you'll get your chops down much faster then sitting at home with a metronome or midi file.
The live jazz jams have almost become a thing of the distant past. (although there are still blues jams)
If you want to learn how to improvise, or write, Pick up Band in A Box
find some biab files. mute the melody/solo and try to write/play over the progresson.
And/or
Select a style, use the chord builder to mark/generate the chord progression.
Then try to build a melody based on the progression you have entered.
While not a perfect arrangement from scratch (play chords, go back play bassline go back play drums, go back play melody) It will get you in the door
and give you a quick scratch pad to work out your ideas.
-tapper mike
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 106 posts since 4 Apr, 2007
ok im back at home tomorrow i can post the mp3 of the chords and solo,
i basically want to learn as much as i can so i can achieve my own music on my own.
Its basically maj 7ths/9th etc jazz chords im interested in, being able to create my own chord progressions.
dont want to use plug ins, loops etc, just be able to get my own sound.
I can now read music and play just the maj scales, so you can see im only at the start of my learning process,
does anyone recommend any books on chord stuctures, progressions etc
something that i can understand and builds up rather than going head long into
depth etc
its kind of Neo soul, soulful house im interested in, rhodes, whirly stuff,
many thanks for all replys,
ta lee
i basically want to learn as much as i can so i can achieve my own music on my own.
Its basically maj 7ths/9th etc jazz chords im interested in, being able to create my own chord progressions.
dont want to use plug ins, loops etc, just be able to get my own sound.
I can now read music and play just the maj scales, so you can see im only at the start of my learning process,
does anyone recommend any books on chord stuctures, progressions etc
something that i can understand and builds up rather than going head long into
depth etc
its kind of Neo soul, soulful house im interested in, rhodes, whirly stuff,
many thanks for all replys,
ta lee
LJ
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- KVRist
- 407 posts since 23 Oct, 2006 from Northern New England
Hi,
I'm not too familiar with the currently available basic music theory books, but I imagine a "Music Theory for Dummies" would probably get you most of what you need.
Here's perhaps a bit of a jump start, however: For the kinds of chords you mention, you'll need to be able to identify what basic type of chord it is. For example, an Fmaj7, Fmaj9, Fmaj7#11, etc. are all "major" types. You want to use either the F major scale or the F lydian mode (C major scale) for those, EXCEPT that Fmaj7#11, which needs F lydian because of that #11.
An F7, F9, F13, etc. type chord is a "dominant" type. You'll probably want to start with F mixolydian for that (Bb major), but you can go pretty wild on these types of chords depending on whether they resolve or not. ("Resolving" is a large topic in itself; I won't try to explain here, but for now just know that an F dominant chord going to Bb (either minor or major) means you can play just about any note you want except E (and some'll play that too) -- although making it sound cool is another story!)
Fmin, Fm7, Fm9, Fm11, etc. are all "minor" types. Try F dorian here (E major), although you may need the F aolian/natural minor (Ab major) in certain spots.
Since you're interested in jazz, I'll mention one more type, which is frequently found in minor key progressions: Fm7b5, Fm11b5 -- the "half-diminished" or "minor 7-flat 5". To be honest, I mostly play m7b5 arpeggios here, not scale fragments, but I should probably branch out! Try an "F locrian sharp 2" scale (Gb major, except play G natural instead of Gb: F G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F).
Of course, these are just staring points -- especially when it comes to dominant chords -- but these will give you a good foundation and help develop your ear. When you get to using modes of the melodic minor scale (yet another topic in itself), it'll REALLY start to sound cool!
Good luck,
Tim
I'm not too familiar with the currently available basic music theory books, but I imagine a "Music Theory for Dummies" would probably get you most of what you need.
Here's perhaps a bit of a jump start, however: For the kinds of chords you mention, you'll need to be able to identify what basic type of chord it is. For example, an Fmaj7, Fmaj9, Fmaj7#11, etc. are all "major" types. You want to use either the F major scale or the F lydian mode (C major scale) for those, EXCEPT that Fmaj7#11, which needs F lydian because of that #11.
An F7, F9, F13, etc. type chord is a "dominant" type. You'll probably want to start with F mixolydian for that (Bb major), but you can go pretty wild on these types of chords depending on whether they resolve or not. ("Resolving" is a large topic in itself; I won't try to explain here, but for now just know that an F dominant chord going to Bb (either minor or major) means you can play just about any note you want except E (and some'll play that too) -- although making it sound cool is another story!)
Fmin, Fm7, Fm9, Fm11, etc. are all "minor" types. Try F dorian here (E major), although you may need the F aolian/natural minor (Ab major) in certain spots.
Since you're interested in jazz, I'll mention one more type, which is frequently found in minor key progressions: Fm7b5, Fm11b5 -- the "half-diminished" or "minor 7-flat 5". To be honest, I mostly play m7b5 arpeggios here, not scale fragments, but I should probably branch out! Try an "F locrian sharp 2" scale (Gb major, except play G natural instead of Gb: F G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F).
Of course, these are just staring points -- especially when it comes to dominant chords -- but these will give you a good foundation and help develop your ear. When you get to using modes of the melodic minor scale (yet another topic in itself), it'll REALLY start to sound cool!
Good luck,
Tim
Last edited by tboulette on Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Enough Spyro Gyra and you're hoping you'll be killed in a knife fight."
-- Chris in the morning
-- Chris in the morning
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- KVRAF
- 6826 posts since 20 Jan, 2008
I already explained this.
If you want to do the tin pan alley method.
(right chord progressions then write melody against it
pick up some sheets (music)
or just write the progression by playing recording chords.
Play back, see the chord play the chord or play notes based on the mode or a lick based on the chord.
Next bar new chord what notes will work best with that chord? try an arppegio
try some notes from a mode or a lick. How does it sound to you? Do you like it great. Do you not like it try something else.
If you want to reverse the method. Play any melody you like.
What chords go best with the notes you just played?
Try them out by putting a rythum behind your melody.
You may want to go from one chord to another you may want to stay on
the chord your playing.
If you want to do the tin pan alley method.
(right chord progressions then write melody against it
pick up some sheets (music)
or just write the progression by playing recording chords.
Play back, see the chord play the chord or play notes based on the mode or a lick based on the chord.
Next bar new chord what notes will work best with that chord? try an arppegio
try some notes from a mode or a lick. How does it sound to you? Do you like it great. Do you not like it try something else.
If you want to reverse the method. Play any melody you like.
What chords go best with the notes you just played?
Try them out by putting a rythum behind your melody.
You may want to go from one chord to another you may want to stay on
the chord your playing.
