Diva - map for Automap 4 and Remote SL MkII controllers

[PAK]

I'm not sure yet if you can have the coarse tune mapped to only send relative increments and leave the fine tuning where it is.

No you can't, AFAIK. I tried, but it only caused the oscillator to get wildly out of tune whenever I changed an octave.

I'm trying to sort this with Range/Detune atm, but it has issues.

When the knob scaling increments are set "perfectly" on the Range control Diva leaves the detune alone. So, that is to say, when Diva sees a perfect -12.00, 0.00, +12.00 then it knows to be smart and the octave will change whilst leaving the detune intact! To have Range operate correctly the min and max must be limited to -24 and +24. So it'll transmit 5 values (-24, -12, 0, +12, +24) whilst in reality the automation control supports from -30.00 to +30.00.

The problems comes when you reach the top or bottom of the range. If the Detune is set to a negative value when you switch from Range '16 to '32 (-24.00) then Diva sees a value higher than its current setting and will reset the negative detune value back to the middle. If it's set to a positive value it leaves it alone as it should, until you send "-24" a second time, where it then resets Detune to the center value. The exact opposite happens in the other (Range 2') direction. Unless I'm missing something then perhaps this should be regarded as a "bug" in the current automation handling since it seems it's not possible to properly automate Range without messing up Detune?

I should finish my automation map by then end of the week and I'll post it so you can all see what I mean if anyone didn't follow that

[PAK]

8 or 9 pages, that's with all the FX's or did you have one map with every oscillator module as well?

That's with every single control Diva offers. But I'd still to begin on the osc modules layout. When I started those it was clear that it would take three pages to make a clear layout that was consistent with the GUI, because things like the change in FM position between Mini and Roland tend to make things confusing if you map it for one layout and then try to put the other one on top of it! Hopefully I should still be able to scrape it all into 9 pages (Currently using 10 right now, but with some space to spare )

I tried to group controls as they are on the UI because I've always hated control maps that pick too many elements from all over the place and stick them on one page - I find them just too confusing to use. So P1 is master controls, VCA, all envs, all filters, FX on/off. P2 is Moog, 3 Roland, 4 MS20, 5 and 6 are both LFOs, tuning and trimmers, 7 through 9 are FX and 10 is the modifications page. Depending on how things go on 2-6 then I might be able to drop Page 10

The blame for the page sprawl problems is largely at Novations door though, since they don't support nested controls. Imagine being able to map a button next to the LFO controls that toggled between LFO1 & 2 - leaving the rest of the page map alone.

Indeed, that would be perfect. Another, basic feature that's missing is simply copy/paste. I could have saved a lot of time if I was able to copy/paste since most of the controls are duplicated many times over. Oh yeah, and duplicate pages would come in pretty handy too!

Yep, no copy/paste is annoying, as is the fact that sometimes controls seemingly randomly lose their value ranges if you dare click on them! I hate how the new v4 system limits you to seeing barely 5 automation parameters at a time in a scrollable list too. Makes it difficult to just browse through controls, even if there's a search box. The old V3 brought up a giant list of parameters you could visually scan quickly. I understand why they dropped this method (because some VST's have so many controls they couldn't fit it on the screen!) but it'd have been nice to figure a way to show more controls so you can find what you're looking for.

Hmm, maybe it's possible since you can map switching osc/filter/env/fx modules -

I don't think you can switch the bottom tabs afaik. Since Automap automatically builds a (giant mess of a) map with all parameters what I usually do is take that, create some extra pages at the end to give some space, then start moving stuff around into a logical order. That way, as long as you're careful, you're fairly sure you haven't missed anything that's automatable

[Echoes in the Attic]

You move stuff around from the default mappings? Yikes. I clear the template completely and latch the learn to build up my own. It's really quick. The planning can take a little longer though (and indecisiveness about layout).

Well I'm glad that detune is left alone for coarse tune changes for the most part. You should be able to get around the reset problem by setting the right min and max values on the coarse tune, no? Ie. -24 to 24 for coarse tune and -30 to 30 for fine?

[aMUSEd]

I made an automap for the Triple VCO in Diva.

Here's the idea: because of the different layout and configuration of all of the modules in Diva, I decided to make one map per oscillator module (hopefully I'll only need to make one map for all of the DCO's - the Triple VCO is the most complex of them all), and then let all of the filters, envelopes and modulation modules be tweakable within the same automap.

That's exactly what I did for the Kore 2 template as well - seemed the best solution

What did you do about the fine/coarse osc tuning? Is it a non-issue or just something to live with?

The latter - some things still need a mouse and this is one unfortunately

[PAK]

You move stuff around from the default mappings? Yikes.

Hah. Well, with the caveat that I'd only do it if the controls are below 10 pages - Above that and I'd want to cut the amount of controls because it's just too many pages to navigate anyway IMO. It does take a little while to unjumble it all at first, but it's not too bad when you add some extra pages and start dragging things into a sensible order. The pay off is you know everything is mapped whereas, if you want to check that after the fact, Novation don't have any way of telling you which parameters remain unmapped afaik (Another thing they really should add!)

I got into the habit because sometimes you'll find VST's with hidden things which are automatable but which can't be accessed from the GUI. Even the beta of Diva had that, in that the 12dB Roland filter was in there before it was added to the GUI! That's why I also know there's about 6 "mystery" controls atm, though most of them seem to do nothing

Well I'm glad that detune is left alone for coarse tune changes for the most part. You should be able to get around the reset problem by setting the right min and max values on the coarse tune, no? Ie. -24 to 24 for coarse tune and -30 to 30 for fine?

AFAICT.. Nope The min and max values actually set the resolution. The "From" and "To" limit the range within that resolution. Sometimes you do have to change the max amount so that the correct increments are sent when you require a specific amount of steps (like changing 100 down to 99 so that the numbers divide properly etc) but it still resets the values even when you send +/- 23.99. As I said, unless I'm missing something, it should maybe be regarded as a bug since it seems to make it impossible to automate these controls properly in Diva..

[ShamanicRitual]

In my workflow, I don't really need some template for all parameters. I just make patch, then figure out what can use to modify sounds, and use learn function of automap. Than write automation, using controller. It don't take much time, really.
What benefits bring this default mappings, if you have only 2 hands?

[PAK]

In my workflow, I don't really need some template for all parameters. I just make patch, then figure out what can use to modify sounds, and use learn function of automap. Than write automation, using controller. It don't take much time, really.
What benefits bring this default mappings, if you have only 2 hands?

The main benefit is every single thing can be controlled from a keyboard without requiring a mouse or even your computer monitor being switched on. Once you "learn" that one set of mappings (takes a few hours) it's then possible to do some things with greater speed than a mouse, plus you can start to "play" the controls on Diva more like a traditional musical instrument. The only thing you can't do on Diva atm is switch the bottom tabs and control some of the voice trimmer options, plus the Range knob sharing the same automation value as Detune is causing some problems with its handling currently.

How useful all that is depends on a few things - I'll give you two good examples. EG on the Moog section I have some buttons set to jump to the exact Waveshapes above the wave shape selection knobs. This means it's actually faster to select specific waveshapes using my map than it is to use the mouse. I've also got some values mapped to their full resolution which means you can control them down to an accuracy of .01 without requiring that you hold down the shift key whilst using the mouse. This doesn't matter much for most values but it does for a few things, plus it makes it easier to play something whilst adjusting - unless you've been a smarty pants and mapped a shift function to a fancy mouse with lots of buttons

On the flip side you'd actually have to press the LFO Sync button 27(!) times to cycle all the timing options. Is it easier to do that or is it easier to select the value from a pull down menu with a mouse? That's why I'll probably end up putting the LFO "at the back" (on the last page with the Modifications tab) since I don't think that's especially helpful.. It's really more there for "completeness"

Diva could've done a few things to be more helpful though. Specifically the automation knobs of FX1 and 2 don't share the same control values between FX, which means things have to be mapped over three pages of 56 controls instead of 1 page with 20 controls (10 is the max amount - used by Rotary/Delay). The graphical layout of the VCO section could (maybe) have been done in such a way that there was a bit more consistency in the positions of controls between the different types too. That would've helped an ability to share a map but would have made it more difficult for certain sections to evoke the "looks like something else" feel too, and maybe actually wouldn't have been that practical once you looked at the details.

In any case the option is there - though I'll probably use the mouse 3/4's of the time anyway, even when I'm done making a map

[Z]

Yep, no copy/paste is annoying, as is the fact that sometimes controls seemingly randomly lose their value ranges if you dare click on them!

Which version of Automap are you using? I was just about to send a bug report for 4.2b2 for the same thing! If I modify one control to use step, select another control and go back to the step control again, it's reset from step to normal.

[Echoes in the Attic]

I'm not sure yet if you can have the coarse tune mapped to only send relative increments and leave the fine tuning where it is.

No you can't, AFAIK. I tried, but it only caused the oscillator to get wildly out of tune whenever I changed an octave.

I'm trying to sort this with Range/Detune atm, but it has issues.

When the knob scaling increments are set "perfectly" on the Range control Diva leaves the detune alone. So, that is to say, when Diva sees a perfect -12.00, 0.00, +12.00 then it knows to be smart and the octave will change whilst leaving the detune intact! To have Range operate correctly the min and max must be limited to -24 and +24. So it'll transmit 5 values (-24, -12, 0, +12, +24) whilst in reality the automation control supports from -30.00 to +30.00.

The problems comes when you reach the top or bottom of the range. If the Detune is set to a negative value when you switch from Range '16 to '32 (-24.00) then Diva sees a value higher than its current setting and will reset the negative detune value back to the middle. If it's set to a positive value it leaves it alone as it should, until you send "-24" a second time, where it then resets Detune to the center value. The exact opposite happens in the other (Range 2') direction. Unless I'm missing something then perhaps this should be regarded as a "bug" in the current automation handling since it seems it's not possible to properly automate Range without messing up Detune?

I should finish my automation map by then end of the week and I'll post it so you can all see what I mean if anyone didn't follow that

edit... I had it wrong.

[Z]

I just did some testing and it's not as bad as I thought. As long as you don't go over 24 or under -24 using your coarse knob, then it won't reset. Best thing I to assign octaves to buttons above and below a fine tune encoder. Saves you from accidentally going further than you want and resetting the detune.

Which settings did you use?

[Echoes in the Attic]

I just did some testing and it's not as bad as I thought. As long as you don't go over 24 or under -24 using your coarse knob, then it won't reset. Best thing I to assign octaves to buttons above and below a fine tune encoder. Saves you from accidentally going further than you want and resetting the detune.

Which settings did you use?

From memory, I'm pretty sure it was:

For Coarse:
Min: -30
Max: 30
From: -24
To: 24
Increments of 12 (5 points)

For Fine:
Min: -30
Max: 30
From: -30
To: 30
Increments of 0.01 or however fine you want. I've also used 0.02 or 0.05

[PAK]

I just did some testing and it's not as bad as I thought. As long as you don't go over 24 or under -24 using your coarse knob, then it won't reset.

That's incorrect, as I've already explained above, because it doesn't take the -/+6 of the Detune into account. Example: If Range is set to 16' (-12.00) and the Detune is set to -6.00 (for a total of -18.00), when you move back down to 32', even though the Range button didn't send a value of more than -24.00, Diva still resets the -6 Detune back to the 12 o'clock position (24.00) instead of setting it to -30.

So, in plain English, Diva doesn't respect a negative setting on Detune when you move Range from '16 to 32' with automation, nor does it respect a positive value on the Detune when you move from 4' to 2'. The only way to get it to work as expected, right now, would be to limit the Range control between -/+12 and get the rest of the way to -/+30 by using Detune alone. Using 2 buttons has no advantage over using a single rotary in the current scenario.

The bottom line is Diva requires a fix for this. It needs either to respect the Detune knob position/value when it sees a perfect +/- 24.00, or it needs to give Range and Detune two completely seperate automation values and intelligently handle the differences internally.

[PAK]

Which version of Automap are you using? I was just about to send a bug report for 4.2b2 for the same thing!

I'm using 4.2b2. I seem to recall the same thing happening in v3 though, but not with the same frequency that it happens in v4. I only just started using v4 since ealier v4 versions completely trashed the Automap install requiring me to manually copy/delete stuff etc. So feel free to point them at this thread in your bug report if you need some back up that someone else is experiencing the same issues with 4.2b2.

Which settings did you use?

The correct setting for Detune is to set the Max value to 6000. Diva's controls respond at different resolutions which does complicate things. For example the filter starts at 30.00 and goes to 150.00. So you literally subtract 3000 from 15000 to get the resolution of that control, which is 12,000 possible values in the case of the filter. 12,000 is your max value.

In the case of the Range control it's more tricky. Because it (rather strangely) shares an automation parameter with another control, its expected values are actually different from what the automation control allows. So first you need to look at what the minimum and maximum values for the automation parameter actually are. They are -30.00 to +30.00. That's just another way of saying 6,000 possible values. Now we want to limit the range between -24 and +24 to create a range control. So what's 2400 from 3000? 600. That means -24 is 600 and +24 is 5400 in a range of 0-6000. Make sense? Now you want 5 steps, so you just set it as a stepped control and type 5 steps into it. That's it.

[xh3rv]

The correct setting for Detune is to set the Max value to 6000.

Just to be completely clear, isn't it 6001 "points" with a 'Min':-30 'Max':30? The 0.00 element is the extra one on the 6000. I can't remember exactly what happens with an off-by-one value in Automap 4, but 'off-by-one' is a well known source of bugs in computers/software.

It's pretty easy to set the number of points by entering the desired step size in the 'Size' dialog in any case. This was wonky with some of the previous versions of Automap 4 IIRC but works now.

[PAK]

The correct setting for Detune is to set the Max value to 6000.

Just to be completely clear, isn't it 6001 "points" with a 'Min':-30 'Max':30? The 0.00 element is the extra one on the 6000.

That's totally correct, yes.

I can't remember exactly what happens with an off-by-one value in Automap 4, but 'off-by-one' is a well known source of bugs in computers/software.

If a specific amount of steps are required then it completely screws it up. You need to know the exact range in order for steps to work correctly. Not only that, the maximum value must also divide correctly by the amount of steps. So you may get a situation where a control supports a resolution of 0-100, but the steps require an amount different from 100 in order to divide by the correct multiples and work correctly.

In reality the Automap software only cares that it can divide correctly and doesn't really care about the "max" resolution. It only matters when, eg, you want to control down to 0.01 on software like Diva correctly, so it's a good habit to use the actual resolution of the control, rather than just type in an alternative number which divides to the same amounts The non-encoders also only support a standard 128 MIDI resolution, so you can type whatever you want in them, but you'll still get 128 steps of resolution