New to Mac - VST or AU? :P
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- KVRAF
- 4811 posts since 21 Jan, 2008 from oO
For a long time the biggest difference was the possibility that AU had a sidechain path in the plugin, wich was missing in vst a long time up until vst3 or host solutions. So, i'm not sure about the vst in an au wrapper. I have doubts at least.justin3am wrote:I'm not sure how common it is today, but in the past many AUs were just VSTs in a wrapper (I think Symbiosis was a common one).
In my experience, there is not much difference between using AU v. VST in hosts which support both.
These days it is probably not a difference anymore at all.
JamWide - a cross-platform Ninjam client for DAWs
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 35689 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany
Just had a small issue with Spire not being able to MIDI learn. It first accepted two assignments, but refused to take further assignments, even after restarting the host. Dunno if that may have to do with the iMac still being on Yosemite though. I plan to do a factory reset in a couple of days, and then i'll surely update it to Sierra too. Only testing a few things for now. So far, i'm quite impressed by how easy things are. Thought i'd need more time to adapt, but, the installation and unpacking is pretty straight forward. I even found the folder where the VST's and AU's are installed already, thanks to the u-he FAQ. 
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- KVRAF
- 4811 posts since 21 Jan, 2008 from oO
Sierra on a 2009 imac? You can be lucky i guess:
Mac Support List
https://www.lifewire.com/minimum-requir ... ra-4055648
Mac Support List
https://www.lifewire.com/minimum-requir ... ra-4055648
JamWide - a cross-platform Ninjam client for DAWs
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- KVRAF
- 4811 posts since 21 Jan, 2008 from oO
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- KVRAF
- 25849 posts since 20 Jan, 2008 from a star near where you are
What kind of specs does this computer sport, how much RAM, processor type?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 35689 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany
It's a Core2Duo (i think) with 3.06 Ghz, it has 4 GB of RAM (not sure if upgradeable), and a 1 TB HDD. Performance is actually quite ok, even though the Macbook my relative bought now is way faster (boot time and general reaction time). The Macbook has a SSD though, and, of course, the hardware should be better also.
Edit: Here it is: https://support.apple.com/kb/SP576?loca ... cale=en_EN
Edit: Here it is: https://support.apple.com/kb/SP576?loca ... cale=en_EN
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- KVRist
- 415 posts since 3 Jun, 2017
Nah. No Sierra.
I mean, I'm running Sierra on my Mac and a 2014 i5 MacBook Air and it's cool, but I also helped a former band mate (we split up before that ) install Sierra on his 2011 i7 MacBook Pro. While he's happy that it's "clean" now, he's not so happy about the performance. Since the iMac range is basically a "notebook without hinges" inside, I wouldn't recommend trying to install it on such an old machine, since it can't be any better than a 2011 MacBook Pro. That said, I also have Sierra on a 2012 Mac Mini and it's OK. Still wouldn't advise it in your case.
My recommendation would be to do what I did. Use that weak, old Mac with something like Lion or Mountain Lion (10.7, 10.8 ) which is still supported by most software today, and see if you like the "look and feel" of it over time. Either it snaps and you love it (like happened with me), or you'll go running back to Windows and hate it forever. If you like it, wait 'til a new Mac comes out and consider investing some money.
I mention OSX Lion and Mountain Lion, because 10.7+ is still fairly safely supported by most host and plugin developers. Also, Lion/Mountain Lion (10.7/10.8 ) was roundabout when Steve Jobs died, so it was still good and not overloaded with constant Windows-like notifications popping up from everwhere and visual flatness and all that rubbish.
The hard drive and RAM will probably be the weak point of your old iMac, can never have enough RAM with OSX. 10.7 already supports SSDs and, at least I think so, TRIM. So if you know how to open that iMac case and you can justify spending something like 100€-200€ on the upgrade, I would strongly recommend to pop an SSD and some fresh RAM sticks in there. Just google for "iFixit iMac 2009 SSD", that should get you there. I put Crucial SSDs into my first Mac and used Samsung EVOs ever since, no problem ever. On 10.7/10.8, you may have to enable TRIM via Terminal or a patch, just google for "Mac enable SSD Trim" for instructions. The RAM, I think, only has to be non-ECC, but apart from that you can stick every regular PC RAM into that machine. Be sure to check everymac.com for the exact specs so you know what kind of RAM to buy. But an SSD and 8+ GB of RAM will definitely make your Mac love you a lot more.
Since many plugin developers use third party frameworks like JUCE and the likes, which usually build a VST plugin and then create an AU wrapper around it (to the best of my knowledge), I would just recommend to use VST. I don't believe an VST-to-AU wrapper drains any significant performance, even with hundreds of wrapped AU plugins the CPU hit of those wrappers would be negligible, if at all detectable. So don't obsess about it, use AU if you feel comfortable. But if you're planning to use other hosts beside Reaper (whyever...
) then maybe the way to go is VST2 or VST3. If you have a lot of Waves plugins, then they recommend to use VST3 in Reaper on Mac. I've been using Reaper on OSX since 2011, rock solid and very performant, and I've not had any issues with Waves VST2s in it so far.
One potential reason to maybe steer clear of AU plugins (and Logic) is that Apple will always remove old code from their SDKs, and ultimately "force" those changes onto unsuspecting users in Logic and system updates. This will break compatibility with some plugins that were compiled with older SDKs, so it may well happen that you open your newly updated Logic one day and your favourite AU plugin won't load, because it tries to use functionality that was removed from the SDK the latest Logic update you installed was built with. Pretty silly if you ask me, but that's the way it is.
As your profile mentions you're in Germany, where Apple's "must only use macOS on Apple hardware" EULA clause is legally invalid, you may consider confectioning a Hackintosh instead of purchasing a "real" Mac. It's basically normal PC hardware that's (more or less) compatible with macOS, and with some investigation on the right forums as to what hardware works, as well as a few (well-documented) tricks, you can have something that out-performs a 4K+ Euro Mac Pro for a third of the price. With macOS on it, with Thunderbolt 3, with a fancy PCIe SSD, with nVidia (for that Windows gaming partition) and 4K screen and all of those treats.
Sure, if you're curious then go ahead. I think it's always best to make personal experience with things you don't know before judging those things, be it food or DAW software or other people, so I'm all in favour of "trying something new". But there's absolutely nothing wrong with sticking to what you know or prefer. Also, read above for reasons to potentially avoid Logic on an old/er machine.
I mean, I'm running Sierra on my Mac and a 2014 i5 MacBook Air and it's cool, but I also helped a former band mate (we split up before that
) install Sierra on his 2011 i7 MacBook Pro. While he's happy that it's "clean" now, he's not so happy about the performance. Since the iMac range is basically a "notebook without hinges" inside, I wouldn't recommend trying to install it on such an old machine, since it can't be any better than a 2011 MacBook Pro. That said, I also have Sierra on a 2012 Mac Mini and it's OK. Still wouldn't advise it in your case.My recommendation would be to do what I did. Use that weak, old Mac with something like Lion or Mountain Lion (10.7, 10.8 ) which is still supported by most software today, and see if you like the "look and feel" of it over time. Either it snaps and you love it (like happened with me), or you'll go running back to Windows and hate it forever. If you like it, wait 'til a new Mac comes out and consider investing some money.
I mention OSX Lion and Mountain Lion, because 10.7+ is still fairly safely supported by most host and plugin developers. Also, Lion/Mountain Lion (10.7/10.8 ) was roundabout when Steve Jobs died, so it was still good and not overloaded with constant Windows-like notifications popping up from everwhere and visual flatness and all that rubbish.
The hard drive and RAM will probably be the weak point of your old iMac, can never have enough RAM with OSX. 10.7 already supports SSDs and, at least I think so, TRIM. So if you know how to open that iMac case and you can justify spending something like 100€-200€ on the upgrade, I would strongly recommend to pop an SSD and some fresh RAM sticks in there. Just google for "iFixit iMac 2009 SSD", that should get you there. I put Crucial SSDs into my first Mac and used Samsung EVOs ever since, no problem ever. On 10.7/10.8, you may have to enable TRIM via Terminal or a patch, just google for "Mac enable SSD Trim" for instructions. The RAM, I think, only has to be non-ECC, but apart from that you can stick every regular PC RAM into that machine. Be sure to check everymac.com for the exact specs so you know what kind of RAM to buy. But an SSD and 8+ GB of RAM will definitely make your Mac love you a lot more.
Since many plugin developers use third party frameworks like JUCE and the likes, which usually build a VST plugin and then create an AU wrapper around it (to the best of my knowledge), I would just recommend to use VST. I don't believe an VST-to-AU wrapper drains any significant performance, even with hundreds of wrapped AU plugins the CPU hit of those wrappers would be negligible, if at all detectable. So don't obsess about it, use AU if you feel comfortable. But if you're planning to use other hosts beside Reaper (whyever...
) then maybe the way to go is VST2 or VST3. If you have a lot of Waves plugins, then they recommend to use VST3 in Reaper on Mac. I've been using Reaper on OSX since 2011, rock solid and very performant, and I've not had any issues with Waves VST2s in it so far.One potential reason to maybe steer clear of AU plugins (and Logic) is that Apple will always remove old code from their SDKs, and ultimately "force" those changes onto unsuspecting users in Logic and system updates. This will break compatibility with some plugins that were compiled with older SDKs, so it may well happen that you open your newly updated Logic one day and your favourite AU plugin won't load, because it tries to use functionality that was removed from the SDK the latest Logic update you installed was built with. Pretty silly if you ask me, but that's the way it is.
As your profile mentions you're in Germany, where Apple's "must only use macOS on Apple hardware" EULA clause is legally invalid, you may consider confectioning a Hackintosh instead of purchasing a "real" Mac. It's basically normal PC hardware that's (more or less) compatible with macOS, and with some investigation on the right forums as to what hardware works, as well as a few (well-documented) tricks, you can have something that out-performs a 4K+ Euro Mac Pro for a third of the price. With macOS on it, with Thunderbolt 3, with a fancy PCIe SSD, with nVidia (for that Windows gaming partition) and 4K screen and all of those treats.
Because the setting is a lot nicer and foreign food in a foreign climate could give you the sh*ts?Numanoid wrote:I mean why go abroad or on holiday, and eat the same food as at home
Sure, if you're curious then go ahead. I think it's always best to make personal experience with things you don't know before judging those things, be it food or DAW software or other people, so I'm all in favour of "trying something new". But there's absolutely nothing wrong with sticking to what you know or prefer. Also, read above for reasons to potentially avoid Logic on an old/er machine.
Confucamus.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 35689 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany
Thanks for all the infos. 
To make it clear though: I won't be leaving Windows for MacOS, or make the iMac my main (production) machine, it's rather to be seen as something i got for free, and as an opportunity to learn some about MacOS. I don't think upgrading it in any way is even worth it, let's say i upgrade the HDD to a SSD, then i still have a computer with a slow CPU, and low on memory. Let's say i also upgrade the memory then, then i still have a machine with a slow CPU, and graphics adapter. 
It really doesn't make much sense, and, i don't have the money or desire to get a more up to date Mac. I will use it for what it is, and will check out some software, audio software and other.
I surely plan to install Sierra on it though, i do like it more than Yosemite, or anything before that, as i already could take a look at it. Even if it doesn't perform quite as well, i won't do stuff which require the last bit of performance anyway. It's ok, i guess. Happy to be able to take a closer look at the system now, and try a couple of things, it's fine. My Windows desktop will stay the main workhorse anyway. Although picture or video editing surely has its appeal on the Mac, because the display is excellent.
BTW, purely out of interest: How do you purchase MacOS for a Hackintosh?
To make it clear though: I won't be leaving Windows for MacOS, or make the iMac my main (production) machine, it's rather to be seen as something i got for free, and as an opportunity to learn some about MacOS. I don't think upgrading it in any way is even worth it, let's say i upgrade the HDD to a SSD, then i still have a computer with a slow CPU, and low on memory. Let's say i also upgrade the memory then, then i still have a machine with a slow CPU, and graphics adapter. It really doesn't make much sense, and, i don't have the money or desire to get a more up to date Mac. I will use it for what it is, and will check out some software, audio software and other.I surely plan to install Sierra on it though, i do like it more than Yosemite, or anything before that, as i already could take a look at it. Even if it doesn't perform quite as well, i won't do stuff which require the last bit of performance anyway. It's ok, i guess. Happy to be able to take a closer look at the system now, and try a couple of things, it's fine.
My Windows desktop will stay the main workhorse anyway. Although picture or video editing surely has its appeal on the Mac, because the display is excellent.BTW, purely out of interest: How do you purchase MacOS for a Hackintosh?
Last edited by chk071 on Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRAF
- 25849 posts since 20 Jan, 2008 from a star near where you are
LOL. OP BewareRockatansky wrote:Because the setting is a lot nicer and foreign food in a foreign climate could give you the sh*ts?Numanoid wrote:I mean why go abroad or on holiday, and eat the same food as at home
I'll take my chance though
If all should come to the worst, I've always found the toilet a nice place for reading and potty training -
- KVRAF
- 13140 posts since 7 May, 2006 from Southern California
http://nuedge.net/article/5-symbiosis.maki wrote:For a long time the biggest difference was the possibility that AU had a sidechain path in the plugin, wich was missing in vst a long time up until vst3 or host solutions. So, i'm not sure about the vst in an au wrapper. I have doubts at least.justin3am wrote:I'm not sure how common it is today, but in the past many AUs were just VSTs in a wrapper (I think Symbiosis was a common one).
In my experience, there is not much difference between using AU v. VST in hosts which support both.
It was developed by Magnus Lindstrom. It was used by quite a few plug-in developers, If I remember correctly. As I said, that's probably not the case anymore, since it's so easy to build for various plug-in formats with JUCE.
VST2s could have side-chain inputs (for effects and instruments), it just wasn't ever implemented/officially supported in Cubase. The first VST effects I remember having side-chain inputs were the Sonalksis compressor and gate. The feature would work in Live but to use it in Cubase you had to setup a quad channel or something silly like that.
If I remember correctly, AUs can't have MIDI Outputs (can receive MIDI from the host but can't send MIDI to the host). I could be mistaken about that or that may have changed but I seem to remember that being the case.
@chk071: I use a 2009 MBP with a similar Core2Duo processor for compatibility testing. It will support 10.6.8 through 10.11.6 (I have boot drives with all of those OSs). I'd recommend updating to El Capitan, if it isn't already running that version.
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- KVRAF
- 2639 posts since 16 Jan, 2013
You can buy 10.6 from Apple on DVD or download codes for 10.7 and 10.8 which are distributed through the Mac App Store.chk071 wrote:BTW, purely out of interest: How do you purchase MacOS for a Hackintosh?
For the latter you need a Mac/Hack to download and run the installers.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 35689 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany
It's running Yosemite ATM (my relative never dared to upgrade, she already was annoyed about the new handling, and new program versions in Yosemitejustin3am wrote: @chk071: I use a 2009 MBP with a similar Core2Duo processor for compatibility testing. It will support 10.6.8 through 10.11.6 (I have boot drives with all of those OSs). I'd recommend updating to El Capitan, if it isn't already running that version.
), but, i plan to do a factory reset (too much stuff on there i don't need, and i want to start "new"), and upgrade to Sierra, which it will still run. TBH, i'm a bit of a sucker for the "newest", and if it can run the newest version, then i'd want to upgrade to it, and i already liked the look and feel of Sierra on other computers i've seen it running on. @ sprnva: Thanks.
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- KVRist
- 415 posts since 3 Jun, 2017
Sounds like me in 2011. Just you wait...chk071 wrote:I won't be leaving Windows for MacOS, or make the iMac my main (production) machine
Well, I got 10.7 with my first Mac. Then I purchased one or two upgrades from the Mac App Store when they were released, and eventually OSX became free (if you have a Mac) anyway. Since 10.9 or so, it was never necessary to purchase an upgrade anymore, every new version upgrade was free. To be quite honest, I don't know what would happen if you opened App Store on whatever version of OSX you're using now, whether it would offer you to upgrade to Sierra for free or not I mean. If it's Yosemite, the upgrade should definitely be free.chk071 wrote:BTW, purely out of interest: How do you purchase MacOS for a Hackintosh?
But legally through App Store on a real Mac is the answer, that's the way I got hold of my OSX installers.
Confucamus.