“Edit Groups” Available?

[PierreG]

Thanks Jabe!

[dRowAudio]

Hi apologies for the delay. Unfortunately "edit groups" isn't on our current roadmap and the feature set for W9 is locked in now.
I'd have to do some investigations as to how this would work before commenting on if we'll be able to add it or not.

@PierreG, I think the main reason why you can't link clips from different sources is that it's safer to create a clone from a source rather than link two existing clips. For example, if you link two clips, you would need to determine which one is the master. At that point, the slave clip would get a copy of the master. This extra logic step could be seen as confusing and I can't see how it would be much quicker than just creating a new clone of your designated master?

There might be some advantages but we'd have to think about the workflow a bit more I think to avoid confusion about what linking clips actually does.

[PierreG]

Thanks for checking in Dave! I know you're in crunch mode, so this is much appreciated.

@PierreG, I think the main reason why you can't link clips from different sources is that it's safer to create a clone from a source rather than link two existing clips. For example, if you link two clips, you would need to determine which one is the master. At that point, the slave clip would get a copy of the master. This extra logic step could be seen as confusing and I can't see how it would be much quicker than just creating a new clone of your designated master?

In my experience, linked copied clips act as masters already. In fact they both act as master, in that you can edit either one (comping or fades) and it's instantly replicated in the other clip. I'm hoping that you find linking existing clips will be easier than imagined, and that we'll see this feature come into being.

Without being able to link different clips without making copies, Mauvehead's scenario doesn't fly. Not sure how creating a clone of the master is helping here.

As for the copy / paste feature I asked for and received (Thanks Dave!), being able to link existing clips would be much quicker and cohesive.

Fingers crossed for this feature to be manifest.

Well wishes for W9 doings!

P

[Mauvehead]

Thanks for checking in Dave! I know you're in crunch mode, so this is much appreciated.

@PierreG, I think the main reason why you can't link clips from different sources is that it's safer to create a clone from a source rather than link two existing clips. For example, if you link two clips, you would need to determine which one is the master. At that point, the slave clip would get a copy of the master. This extra logic step could be seen as confusing and I can't see how it would be much quicker than just creating a new clone of your designated master?

In my experience, linked copied clips act as masters already. In fact they both act as master, in that you can edit either one (comping or fades) and it's instantly replicated in the other clip. I'm hoping that you find linking existing clips will be easier than imagined, and that we'll see this feature come into being.

Without being able to link different clips without making copies, Mauvehead's scenario doesn't fly. Not sure how creating a clone of the master is helping here.

As for the copy / paste feature I asked for and received (Thanks Dave!), being able to link existing clips would be much quicker and cohesive.

Fingers crossed for this feature to be manifest.

Well wishes for W9 doings!

P

PierreG is 100% on target here with how group editing among tracks/clips would need to function if it were implemented. This type of workflow has been around in Logic since either v8 or v9 (can't remember which). Has this been in PT for a long time as well? At any rate, here's a good quick rundown of the workflow in LPX that is roughly the same as in several other DAW's and this might help illustrate the feature request for a future Waveform update:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201943

Again, this type of workflow really comes into play when editing anything that has been multi-mic'd. Trying to make track comps by way of going through each associated track (say 10 drum mics) one-by-one to is very tedious/counter-productive at the moment. And another potential pitfall with the one-track-at-a-time method would be sloppy edits if the track comp swipes (in say the snare track) weren't exactly the same (down to the sample level) as the other associated drum tracks. Imagine weird things like ambience and room bleed not coming from the exactly same performance across multiple drum tracks? That could very easily create a disaster. Does that make sense?

Hope this helps explain the need for this type of editing in Waveform. And thank you for the consideration.

Looking forward to W9/10/11/etc!

[PierreG]

Thanks for chiming in Mauvehead! Great recap of the importance of this feature, which is as you point out, a standard in other DAWs.

Be great to see others join this thread and offer their vocal support for this much needed feature.

Please make it happen!

[Mauvehead]

[dRowAudio]

Yeah I hear you, it does look like a cool feature. I don't think using linked clips would get you the results you need here though, the grouping works on a track level and has all sorts of opt-ins to determine what is duplicated between tracks (and the clips they might contain).

Linked clips are really for using the same content in several different places. This is useful for arrangement more than editing.

I think if we were to do grouping, it would have to be similar to the way Logic handles it or we'll probably over-complicate the linked clips feature.

[Mauvehead]

Yeah I hear you, it does look like a cool feature. I don't think using linked clips would get you the results you need here though, the grouping works on a track level and has all sorts of opt-ins to determine what is duplicated between tracks (and the clips they might contain).

Yeah that is pretty insightful and what you've said here hits the nail on the head. Having editable "track groups" is more of what I've been suggesting, in addition to the current "linked clips" option. My bad if I've used the wrong terminology in my descriptions (so many DAWs, so much jargon overlap on things like clips, regions, events, tracks, etc).

Linked clips are really for using the same content in several different places. This is useful for arrangement more than editing.

Admittedly this is a very useful workflow that I need to take better advantage of. Perhaps other DAWs have this ability as well but until this thread I've never given it much thought. Seems like a great time saver in certain situations.

I think if we were to do grouping, it would have to be similar to the way Logic handles it or we'll probably over-complicate the linked clips feature.

You might also take a peek at how Studio One 3 handles this sort of workflow. In a way SO3 seems a tad more streamlined in how they've implemented things but LPX allows for more customization in how track group edits work. Both have their merits depending on the situation.

One thing for sure is that I'm highly interested in seeing how the Tracktion crew approaches this sort of functionality (if/when this gets implemented). You guys always seem to have a knack for tackling a common feature in an inventive and outside-of-the-box way. If you guys do start messing around with this sort of functionality and you need some extra user feedback please feel free to contact me per alphas/betas or whatever as I'd be happy to help.

Thanks again for your time and consideration!

Todd

[HansP]

perhaps "type of linking":
a) for arranging and DJ-remixing
b) for editing (wav data processing or midi processing, includes cutting/editing)
c) for comping (the other type of cut/edit to make one final track of many candidates, but they have a fractal property of parallelism within, as one candidate may consist of many instances that were recorded together as one take.)

and a GUI of one breed for all, that inherits the respective features of either a,b,c, to [x] switch on or off, with a list of what is actually part of this grouping or this link-item.
it may happen in the software development, that by this, all editing (mouse clicks on track detail objects and then commands, etc.) is interpreted on meta level into a script, which is then analyzed and checked, and then, applied to all objects that are "linked", where it fits or where the switch is "on". this might also be related to or have synergy with the "undo level" system. power-users might want to debug such a temporary script on their own, and need a little GUI for this, and a virtual storage paradigm for that type of script.

[PierreG]

Grateful that this thread is gaining the Tracktion it deserves!

Keep the suggestions coming folks, for this discussion will likely yield great things to come.

I still think linked clips not being limited to copies would be great. If the concepts being tossed around are eventually implemented, it may not be necessary as a single feature.

The copy / paste of comps between clips feature is a life saver for me when I have multiple mics on a single instrument (not a drum spread) that are all mono clips, in that I create the comp on any one of the mono mic tracks, then when complete, copy the comp to the other clips. Before this feature, it was insane having to manually duplicate the comps on the other tracks.

Cheers to Waveform's continued evolution!

P

[Mauvehead]

Grateful that this thread is gaining the Tracktion it deserves! P

Wow. Just Wow.

Keep the suggestions coming folks, for this discussion will likely yield great things to come.

I still think linked clips not being limited to copies would be great. If the concepts being tossed around are eventually implemented, it may not be necessary as a single feature.P

Perhaps. However the idea of linking various clips that are populated around a given project is ideal for certain situations that wouldn't benefit from "track group comping". A good example would be when you've already copy/pasted a particular clip to multiple places/tracks throughout a project but then you realize you need to edit all of them equally (say volume adjustments, fades, etc). Rather than going through and recopying/repasting the newly edited clip to all of the multiple places where you had previously placed all of the pre-edited clips, just link the clips as you are copy/pasting them and then any shared edits are all taken care of instantly. This is a new workflow method for me that has my wheels turning for certain situations and this would definitely be an instance where the "track group coming" would not be of any real use. Right tool for the right job.[/quote]

The copy/paste of comps between clips feature is a life saver for me when I have multiple mics on a single instrument (not a drum spread) that are all mono clips, in that I create the comp on any one of the mono mic tracks, then when complete, copy the comp to the other clips. Before this feature, it was insane having to manually duplicate the comps on the other tracks.P

This is nearly the same workflow as the "track group editing" sans the realtime edits taking place across all tracks in the group simultaneously. So close yet so far away.

Cheers to Waveform's continued evolution! P

[PierreG]

Well said Mauvehead. Greatly appreciate you bringing this to the table!

Not having experience with the track group editing feature, I wondered if my proposal for linked clips beyond just copies was still a worthy / essential feature request if the track group editing feature were to be developed for Waveform, and you just provided a well illustrated example of how it would still be very useful. I know I'd rather not be needing to copy / paste to related track clips that are intended to be identical to my master comp clips. That said, I'm SO grateful for the copy / paste feature that exists from T7 on!

Feeling grateful for this community and all things Tracktion!



P

[klangbastler]

great suggestions here and a very needed discussion regarding editing workflow in tracktion!!!

i would seperate the main concepts discussed here into "track grouping for editing" and "clip grouping for editing".

the editing workflow on the clip level is still quite slow in tracktion (sort of one by one), and it would help the other good things and ideas in the program a lot, to bring things forward in this area.
i am deep into samplitude when editing complex projects and the clip-grouping (clips are called objects in samplitude) for editing functions over there are pretty amazing. they are developing this workflow since 20 years, so they may have an advantage here ...

but even basic things would be of great help. make it simple and straightforward, for example:
select clips, "group" them (the group stays even when deselected), everytime a group of clips is selected, the basic operations like fades, clipborders, stretching, copying, pasting, ... get done on all clips in the group. clipgroups can be ungrouped too.

regarding comping, there could be an option to incorporate that into the group-scenario. but maybe it is someting for extra functionality, like comp-grouping. i am not sure here.

i am not very familiar with the grouping of tracks for editing, but can imagine some helpful workflows.
what i read out of the apple support link above is, that their grouping feature for tracks (in regard to editing, the other options for track groups are more in the mixing and visual area) is tied to the flextime/comping in the program, so this may be some extra-feature in waveform, apart from the clip-grouping described above. when flex-time in waveform would be put into the track context visually and combined with comping ...
at the moment i don't use the flextime options in waveform very much, it is soo fiddly to edit around in the window down there. it needs some elegance/ease-of-use upgrade!

overall i would see the clipgrouping more in the editing field, while track grouping could come in for the mixing process, maybe also visual workflow.

let's see in which direction it will evolve ...

[PierreG]

Cheers to ALL of that klangbastler!!!

Feeling the positive momentum building for these features, which can only help incentivize our dear dev friends.

[Mauvehead]

Looks like the upcoming W10 will bring Group Editing. Nice.