New gainrider looking good - which one's the best?

[BONES]

... for me, who write 80's synth-based pop music

You do understand that it's 2019 and therefore not possible to write "80's" music of any description, right?

Apart from not altering the sound (as a compressor does

That's the heart of the matter - auto-gain versus compression. They are two totally different things and will give you very different sounding results.

Thanks. I have never looked into Adobe Audition before, but looked at their website now. It turns out I already own it. Perhaps it's about time to actually try to use it as well... I assume the voice leveller is a compressor?

Certainly not. It never reduces gain, it always drags the quieter bits up to match the loudest bits. It's not perfect, it often emphasises weird syllables that should stay quiet but the character of the results is entirely different to what you get with compression/expansion.

My normal workflow is to apply it to the whole track, then go in and edit the gain selectively, by hand, until it sounds right. e.g. Last week I was putting the vocal for a new song in. The song's called FORSAkEN and that word is chanted at the back end of the chorus. When I applied the voice leveller, it made the "en" as loud as the rest of it, which sounded really strange (in a bad way) so I went in and reduced the gain on just that part, which appears at least a couple of dozen times, until I was happy with it. Compared to the lengths I go to to get rid of breathing and stuff, it wasn't too much work.

[Bouroki]

They actually alter the sound in the same exact way any digital compressor does, because it IS a digital compressor, and a compressor is an automated gain/fader rider.

No, that's not what a compressor is at all, although it could be set up to act as one, I suppose. A compressor will only alter that part of the signal above the threshold, leaving the bit below the threshold unchanged.

That's only "downward" compression - one kind of compression that also just happens to be the most commonly used one. But there is also upward compression which you have in many compressor plugins like Waves C1, RenComp, MV2, Kotelnikov GE off the top of my head.

These "gain riders" apply a combination of the two. I don't deny its utility/convenience, but they definitely WILL alter the sound in the exact same way a compressor would if set to be identical.

Edit/add:

That's the heart of the matter - auto-gain versus compression. They are two totally different things and will give you very different sounding results.

Compression IS auto-gain by definition!

[Kongru]

... for me, who write 80's synth-based pop music

You do understand that it's 2019 and therefore not possible to write "80's" music of any description, right?

The pinnacle of pedantry

[sleepcircle]

"80's music" in this instance is a shortened form of "80's-style music."

[escalona]

I mostly use Waves rider and it works well for me. Recently I´ve found a Melda one that I actually like better. https://www.meldaproduction.com/MAutoVolume I know many will start criticizing the GUI, but the truth is that the results are great.
Also I support making 80´s music in 2019. Totally.

[Digivolt]

Why didn't anybody mention Track Spacer ?

[escalona]

Why didn't anybody mention Track Spacer ?

I only use it for kick/bass masking frequencies, kind of a quick Neutron trick. Have you found other great uses for it?

[Digivolt]

Why didn't anybody mention Track Spacer ?

I only use it for kick/bass masking frequencies, kind of a quick Neutron trick. Have you found other great uses for it?

Seems people use it to great use on vox too

[BONES]

That's only "downward" compression - one kind of compression that also just happens to be the most commonly used one. But there is also upward compression which you have in many compressor plugins like Waves C1, RenComp, MV2, Kotelnikov GE off the top of my head.

You can't "compress" upward, it only works one way. The word you are looking for is "expansion" and yes, there are plenty of compressor/expanders out there. But, in my experience, expansion doesn't really work very well. That could be down to the situations in which I have tried to use it but it's not something I'd think of in this situation. Much easier and more controllable to compress and then turn the volume up in my experience but that definitely changes the sound in a different way.

These "gain riders" apply a combination of the two. I don't deny its utility/convenience, but they definitely WILL alter the sound in the exact same way a compressor would if set to be identical.

Except, as several people have tried to explain to you - these plugins don't work on the audio signal at all, they work on the channel settings, specifically the channel gain/level. So your original audio track remains COMPLETELY UNCHANGED, eliminating any possibility of coloration or any other change in the signal itself.

Compression IS auto-gain by definition!

No, "compression" works on every millisecond of the input, gain-riders look at much larger time-slices. e.g. the whole verse or the whole chorus and they apply changes as automation of the channel level rather than by outputting a different signal to the input. The name "gain-rider", comes from an old studio technique where you would "ride the fader" while you were mixing down to tape, manually making a part louder or quieter by physically moving it's gain control with your hand. Obviously, it was a bit hit and miss so it was something you normally rehearsed a few times before you hit record. We had compressors back then but they didn't always do the job you needed.

... for me, who write 80's synth-based pop music

You do understand that it's 2019 and therefore not possible to write "80's" music of any description, right?

The pinnacle of pedantry

No, it is just such a meaningless description. Do you write music like Erasure or like Cabaret Voltaire? Like Corey Hart or like Die Krupps? Like Bananarama or Depeche Mode? All of those things are "80s synth-based pop music" to me.

[jochicago]

I think we are getting side-tracked by a discussion on philosophy.

It's a dynamics tool. I think we can agree on that. It's making the dynamic range narrower.

Is it a compressor? This is semantics. It's compressing the dynamic range. it's doing so by changing the output gain based on some logic. It will introduce a change to the performance somehow, transparent in nature but still.

When you look at the output, when you stay near 4 db of GR the output of a vocal rider is pretty similar to that of an elegant opto compressor. It will start sounding different when you are dealing with 10+ db of GR across a track, which is pretty easy to do with a vocal rider but trickier with a compressor plugin.

Most important, as has been stated, the vocal rider comes at it differently. It can write automation. It moves up and down to track words or even syllables in a vocal performance. You can set a transparent compressor to do that too using the right settings. One way or another, you are getting less dynamic range that can be seen as GR. It's just another tool in the toolbox for when you want that, and how you want to go about it.

Hornet AutoGain Pro Mk2 can be made to control drum transients. Is it a gainer, a compressor, a transient designer? All of them are all of those things to a degree. Ultimately the question is how you are going to use it, what workflow does it fit. I wouldn't use Waves Vocal Rider to try to transient-design a snare, any more than I would use a Fairchild 670 for the same purpose. But a transient designer is just a compressor/expander too. Does it matter?

[SparkySpark]

Thanks Bones for clearing things up. You are correct re gainriders vs compressors. However, the gainriders make changes much much more often than once per verse or so (not sure if you implied that). Indeed, they can make changes on every syllable, if that is how the gainrider is set to work. So it is really a substitute for tedious automation (what an oxymoron that term is!). In fact, once the gain info has been recorded by Autogain, the plugin can be removed!

You're right my 80's term was sloppy. That said, some of the bands you mention share more traits with one another than with Avicii.

[SparkySpark]

Jochicago - I may not agree with your terminology but I see now that we all mean the same thing.

[toonertik]

You can't "compress" upward, it only works one way.

From the Neutron manual
"A compressor allows you to reduce the dynamic range of an audio signal. Dynamic range can be thought of as the difference between the quietest and loudest levels of a signal. Compressors can reduce the dynamic range of a signal by decreasing the level of sounds that exceed a certain threshold level (referred to as “downward” compression) or by increasing the level of signals that fall below a certain threshold level (referred to as “upward” compression). Neutron features two Compressor modules capable of multiband compression, flexible sidechaining options and useful visual feedback."
Also Toonboosters Bus compressor has an upwardbutton...
NOT the same as expansion... but I guess they don't know as much as the bag_o_bones... grrrrrrrrr!!!!

[Etienne1973]

I tried a lot. None of these automatic gain riding tools gave me musical results. I went back to do it manually. I mean doing a rough leveling by hand and then adding compression. This combo works best for me.

Does someone here do the leveling job with Melodyne?

[Bouroki]

You can't "compress" upward, it only works one way.

Yes you can, as toonertik has shown already. If only you'd spared a couple of minutes to read up on what C1 can do.

Except, as several people have tried to explain to you - these plugins don't work on the audio signal at all, they work on the channel settings, specifically the channel gain/level. So your original audio track remains COMPLETELY UNCHANGED, eliminating any possibility of coloration or any other change in the signal itself.

None of this makes any sense. It tracks and works on the audio signal, and will color the audio signal accordingly. There's no escaping that fact.

If I downloaded the demo of WA Gain Rider and showed you that it can distort audibly, would that settle the issue for you?

No, "compression" works on every millisecond of the input, gain-riders look at much larger time-slices.
e.g. the whole verse or the whole chorus and they apply changes as automation of the channel level rather than by outputting a different signal to the input.

They can only look at "larger time-slices" if they had lookahead & hold (again, as found on many compressors). Not only that, they would need intelligent specialized detection on the same level of sophistication as something like Soundradix Drum Leveler, for them to dynamically detect distinct phrases/syllables. Something which I don't think any of the plugins mentioned here so far do. They simply look at RMS the same way your stock daw compressor does, they work on every millisecond of the input just like your stock daw compressor does, and maybe throw in some lookahead (although Waves Bass Rider I believe is doing something more sophisticated).