New gainrider looking good - which one's the best?

[SparkySpark]

Hi,

I do a lot of vocals with multiple takes, and therefore I am interested in gainriders to speed up my workflow. As far as I know, there were previously two contestants here: Waves Waverider and HoRNet Autogain / Autogain Pro. Now there is a newcomer from WA with a great intro offer: https://www.kvraudio.com/news/w-a-produ ... ount-44145

I looked at their video and the plug looks very tempting. Has anyone tried these three or other gainriders and have some form of opinion on them? I really like the ease of use on the WA plugin. It just smooths the gain I think, rather than adjust the gain in relation to other music (as the two others do). This can also be done in Autogain Pro but I think the approach seems easier here. (I actually own Autogain Pro but haven't fallen in love with it, for unknown and probably unfair reasons.)

The real question is of course how the three differ in sound quality (especially for use on vocals). As said above, I'd love some input on this. Also, I don't know anything about WA, and since the point of using this plugin is related to the sound quality, I wonder bout the sound quality of their plugins in general.

Thanks!

[SparkySpark]

Hmmm... Is no one doing vocal recordings?

The plugin looks fantastic and I can't wait to hear some reactions.

[CinningBao]

I've used the Waves one and that would be one of the first plugins I'd buy if I ever went the Waves route. It just does exactly what you'd expect.

Sorry, I know nothing of the others.

[No_Use]

I like when such a plugin can write automation (as e.g. Vocal rider can), for later manual tweaking if required.
Couldn't find any info about this on the WA site, but then again, maybe it's not an important feature to you anyway.

[jochicago]

I use Waves Vocal Rider a lot. First insert, set to fast speed and +/- 4db.
It does a great job of leveling the vocals transparently.

I don't use the automation writing feature. I find the plugin does a solid job on auto, and when I need some touch ups so far it's been fine just creating a separate automation line for the track to work in tandem with Vocal Rider, not around it. For a straight-forward song with good vocals, it just works.

I've been considering Hornet AutoGain Pro MK2, currently on sale:
https://www.hornetplugins.com/plugins/h ... n-pro-mk2/

This is a different beast. I want it as a "manual" version of vocal rider, something with deep controls I can set. Vocal Rider is great for voice but what about guitars or bass, or the drum bus? AutoGain Pro MK2 is potentially going to be a pain to set right, but it opens up a ton of possibilities for auto-gaining all track types, and even beyond, doing some transient control stuff and mid/side boosting. So I see it as an advanced type of transparent compressor. Not a set-and-forget magic tool like the Vocal Rider.

No experience with the WA Outlaw plugin. I saw it but from the GUI screenshot it looked less feature-rich than Vocal Rider. However, I just read the specs and realized there is an advanced panel with more detailed controls. I think it looks very good. One of my concerns with Vocal Rider is not being able to set attack/release settings and detection speed (other than the fast/slow button). The WA Outlaw seems to have that covered.

While on the topic, this auto gain tool is free (no experience with it either):
https://www.meldaproduction.com/MAGC

[BONES]

Hmmm... Is no one doing vocal recordings?

Yes but I pre-process them with the voice leveller in Audition, while I am removing all my coughing and breathing and stuff like that, to sort it out before I load them into the songs. It gives me better control and feels like it requires less stuffing around but I am keen to have a look at this new WA Prod thing, as some of their other plugins are pretty good (every kick in every song on our new album has Puncher on it). Waves stuff has never worked in my host (and Waves have said they don't care so they can go and get f**ked) so I wasn't aware of any plugins like this, although I think I'd still prefer to do it as a pre-process.

[Bouroki]

For such plugins to be worthwhile and different enough from a regular compressor, I'd expect specialized features like weighted rms detector (especially important for vocals), lookahead/hold, switchable intelligent detection modes for vocal phrases/bass notes/drum hits etc.. things I believe Waves are already doing in their vocal/bass riders, and also see Soundradix Drum Leveller. Otherwise it's really just a regular compressor.. or in this case an (admittedly convenient) upwards/downwards compressor combo with GR limit, more like Waves MV2.

[SparkySpark]

Otherwise it's really just a regular compressor.. or in this case an (admittedly convenient) upwards/downwards compressor combo with GR limit, more like Waves MV2.

Actually no. These tools don't compress the music but send gain information to the DAW. That is why people in this thread write about Read and Write functionality. When Waves Vocal Rider or HoRNet Augo Gain (Pro) are used, you can set the to Write and then play the song from start to finish. They will now write gain info to a subtrack, compensating for changes in the song's music level. For EDM this might not be that interesting, but for me, who write 80's synth-based pop music where more and more instruments tend to play as the song progresses, this is of interest to keep the song perfect in level (yes, a similar effect could probably be achieved with side-chain compression as well). It's rather cool as you can see the volume slider moving by itself, since the gain has been recorded.

Apart from not altering the sound (as a compressor does, if ever so slightly), the tools are made for this specific feature so they are (perhaps) easier to use than a compressor.

[SparkySpark]

I pre-process them with the voice leveller in Audition

Thanks. I have never looked into Adobe Audition before, but looked at their website now. It turns out I already own it. Perhaps it's about time to actually try to use it as well... I assume the voice leveller is a compressor?

[SparkySpark]

Jochicago - Thanks for your detailed input. Yes, Autogain Pro is pretty deep (too deep for my purposes). In the video on Outlaw they go over the Advanced pane as well, so you can see directly if that covers your needs.

When I tried Autogain Pro on my song, it worked as expected. Something I found interesting was that there was a pretty linear increase of gain level throughout the song. This was consisting with me adding more and more instruments (strings etc) for each chorus etc. However, I ended up not using the gain track. I watched all the tiny changes and got a bit scared really that it would sound like a roller-coaster (so to speak). It could just be a setting thing, but I don't feel that confident judging what's good and not when it comes to micro-adjustments (it's not my interest either; the reason why I turn to gainriders is to save time).

[Bouroki]

Otherwise it's really just a regular compressor.. or in this case an (admittedly convenient) upwards/downwards compressor combo with GR limit, more like Waves MV2.

Actually no. These tools don't compress the music but send gain information to the DAW. That is why people in this thread write about Read and Write functionality. When Waves Vocal Rider or HoRNet Augo Gain (Pro) are used, you can set the to Write and then play the song from start to finish. They will now write gain info to a subtrack, compensating for changes in the song's music level.

Yes this is another feature I'd expect and it doesn't seem this particular plugin does that. However, when you say "it doesn't compress the music" and when you also say...

Apart from not altering the sound (as a compressor does, if ever so slightly),

This is a misconception. They actually alter the sound in the same exact way any digital compressor does, because it IS a digital compressor, and a compressor is an automated gain/fader rider.

[SparkySpark]

I've used the Waves one and that would be one of the first plugins I'd buy if I ever went the Waves route. It just does exactly what you'd expect.

Sorry, I know nothing of the others.

Thanks! I just eventually downloaded the 250 MB Waves plugin manager as I got Sibilance for free (thanks Waves!) so now I can actually try Vocal Rider as well. I just think the Waves plugins look very dated (Sibilance is an exception) and since I'll probably never sell any of my music, it's not only about the sound for me, but just as important to me that my plugins LOOK good...

[SparkySpark]

This is a misconception. They actually alter the sound in the same exact way any digital compressor does (regardless of it being an analog emulation or not).

What? Are you sure? That doesn't make sense to me, and the Waves website should have got it wrong. Or do you mean compression on a computer is technically the same thing as changes to volume? I can't believe that's the case, but would welcome some enlightenment.

[Bouroki]

This is a misconception. They actually alter the sound in the same exact way any digital compressor does (regardless of it being an analog emulation or not).

What? Are you sure? That doesn't make sense to me, and the Waves website should have got it wrong. Or do you mean compression on a computer is technically the same thing as changes to volume? I can't believe that's the case, but would welcome some enlightenment.

Any automated process whether analog or digital needs a set of rules/parameters to achieve its objective. And because it can be much faster than a human, whilst not having our human perception/sensibilities (and in this case sense of musicality), then these rules/parameters can often introduce unwanted or unmusical artefacts and distortions e.g. too quick of a release time on something bass-heavy will introduce very audible distortion. I'm pretty sure that if you try the same thing in this WA Gain Rider (Zero mode and fastest release) you will hear the same distortion.

It is possible and common to smooth out a lot of these artefacts with things like increased attack/release times, program dependency, lookahead/hold, GR limit, detector rms smoothing etc... sometimes these parameters are accessible to the user and other times they are hard-coded in for convenience and cannot be changed. Probably a lot of these gain rider plugins have many of these "smoothing" parameters running under the hood, but it doesn't change the fact that at the heart of it it's the exact same process: detect signal level and adjust gain according to a set of rules.

[BONES]

They actually alter the sound in the same exact way any digital compressor does, because it IS a digital compressor, and a compressor is an automated gain/fader rider.

No, that's not what a compressor is at all, although it could be set up to act as one, I suppose. A compressor will only alter that part of the signal above the threshold, leaving the bit below the threshold unchanged. So you'd need to set your threshold at zero. Then you'd need to side-chain it to the output so that it could make the relative level of the vocal the same throughout the song, which could be really difficult in some circumstances. e.g. I tend to whisper in the verse and scream in the chorus but sometimes the mix in the chorus isn't any louder than the verse, but other times it is. Then you'd need make-up gain so that the loudest bit stayed loud and everything else got louder, so you'd need a compressor with that facility as well.