Weird Recording Track Problem

[ChiroVette]

Well, that test was primarily to see if there was something else "amuck" in the signal chain.

In THEORY you can now keep all of those settings except for the "enable live monitoring" (unless you use headphones), and feed the guitar into the practice amp and use microphone. Just make sure there is no sound other than the little amp in the room (you can have headphones on...) or you implicitly have a feedback loop back to the mike - even if it's not howling feedback, it's enough to cause noise artifacts (which you don't get using DI all the way). Sort of like when recording voice - you really have to have headphones on to avoid cross-contamination of audio in the room.

Thanks again.

Everything you said makes sense, and I have been taking all the precautions you mentioned. It isn't perfect, obviously, since I am in my home, and not a recording studio with perfectly balanced rooms, soundproofing, and all that cool stuff. I live in Brooklyn, luckily a quieter neighborhood in the borough, but if a loud truck comes by, or there are sirens blaring from police or a firetruck, I have to stop and start over again. So all my recording thus far has been free of intrusive, aural artifacts. Obviously things like movement in the room, say from my shades on the front window, would be a problem if I was trying to create something to send to Sony Records, but then again, if that were the case, I would be in a professional recording studio capable of eliminating all ambient noise, and not a house in Brooklyn with all the low sounds one would associate with life in a more urban area.

All that said, I have done pretty well with regard to ambient noise for my purposes, and all those those tracks I recorded yesterday were as clean as I could ask they be using mics without being in a studio.

The thing I keep coming back to, however, is why does Audacity give me a recording for my guitar + amp + Sennheiser microphone that Waveform heretofore has been unable to do?

Like I said, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you're saying, but Waveform is a top-notch software suite, and I find it inconceivable that a much lower-end program like Audacity can accomplish this, while Waveform cannot. At least seemingly. I am still operating under the assumption that I am doing something wrong. But it is not something I am doing outside of my computer, otherwise I would be getting the same problem with Audacity. So it must be some setting I have in Waveform.

[Peter Widdicombe]

My guess would be that the output from Waveform is somehow (i.e. in the 204) is being mixed with the mike signal, sort of like a quasi-delay and short reverb loop. If you don't need to use Waveform to HEAR the guitar, then possibly MUTE that channel completely (I think you can still record), since presumably you want to hear drums, bass, rhythm audible while you record; but since the mike is "live" in the room, you need to be using headphones. In my case the bass is direct, and guitar is through the Digi pedal/amp simulator, so I can make all the noise I want with no potential after-effects.

Audacity has a simpler task, and presumably doesn't default to making all tracks (including the recorded one) being heard on the output.

[ChiroVette]

My guess would be that the output from Waveform is somehow (i.e. in the 204) is being mixed with the mike signal, sort of like a quasi-delay and short reverb loop. If you don't need to use Waveform to HEAR the guitar, then possibly MUTE that channel completely (I think you can still record), since presumably you want to hear drums, bass, rhythm audible while you record; but since the mike is "live" in the room, you need to be using headphones. In my case the bass is direct, and guitar is through the Digi pedal/amp simulator, so I can make all the noise I want with no potential after-effects.

Audacity has a simpler task, and presumably doesn't default to making all tracks (including the recorded one) being heard on the output.

I can try this, but there are a couple of problems I can think of. It's very hard to play along with the tracks I can't hear. Since I will have headphones on, in order to hear the backing tracks, that will make it very hard to balance the guitar track I am creating, and probably obliterate all spontaneity in recording. Maybe there is a one side headphone in and the other side out option, but that is going to put a serious obstacle in the way.

I am sure that this problem is one that actually has a solution, other than taking what really amount to absurd measures to record my guitar. NOT that your suggestions are absurd! lol They may actually be the only way round this while using Waveform. Of course, this begs the question: if it really is a problem that can only be remedied by extreme measures like only having one side of the headphones in or just trying to record my guitar without really hearing the mix as I play, then at what point do I simply abandon Tracktion entirely and try to find another DAW that will suit my needs better?

I hope one of the developers reads this forum or someone that can hopefully tell me what I am doing wrong. I really do hope this is an issue that's on me. Because if this is some kind of wacky glitch in the program that I have to live with, and there's no way around it other than some really extreme measures, then unfortunately that's a deal-breaker for me.

[ChiroVette]

Okay, I think I have a solution that, while it still sucks, it will at least be a clumsy sort of workaround for this issue:

It unfortunately requires two more timely steps I would rather not have to do, but it is something I would at least be willing to in the interim, while I await a more practical solution. I will work with Waveform for everything else, aside from guitar. I can do all my vocal recording, editing, and any editing of the backing tracks, which Waveform has been SUPER helpful with so far. Particularly the crossfade functionality.

When I want to record the guitar track, I can simply export the Tracktion Edit file to Audacity, record the guitar track like I did with the recording above, then DELETE the Traction file track from Audacity's timeline, and export only the guitar track as a .wav file back to Waveform. Then I can proceed with the editing as if I created the guitar track in Waveform because it will just be another track at this point.

Not my first choice to have to jump through all these hoops, but it should at least work well enough until I can find a solution to this very bizarre problem, or choose another DAW at some point if it turns out there is no better solution.

[Peter Widdicombe]

I don't actually think this is a waveform-specific issue - it's physics of sound in free air, and connections, and Waveform here is just the tool. I had the same problem in the past with Macaw, EnergyXT, Cakewalk.

While recording a new track on top of an existing or layered multi-take, you pretty much have to HEAR everything you have already done to overlay the new track; plus you really need to be able to hear the new input "in context". However, you only want the INPUT to that track to be the first-generation of that take, be it voice, guitar, keys, etc. Voice is normally done in a quiet room with headphones for a reason - you don't want the rest of the mix to be part of the vocal track.

Your guitar is the same. It it were DI'd in that isn't a problem, but when miked it is, although possibly to a lesser degree as the mike uni-directional and right up to the grill won't be picking up MUCH of the rest of the audio track you may be listening to - but possibly enough to have some of those phasing artifacts.

Listening to the overall mix with open headphones and then hearing the amp in the room, would probably accomplish the "singer dilemna" which I believe you are going to encounter with any DAW, doing multitrack with a microphone. If YOU can hear it in the room, so can the microphone.

[Peter Widdicombe]

Found "one" other solution. (PS - this ISN'T me)

Essentially, you make the speaker/microphone problem act like a DI by placing it in another room... Either another room or an "ISO-Cab" which is a unit with built-in isolation for studio work. That way you actually monitor through the DAW along with the full mix, and can use headphones or studio monitor speakers. So, a little cabling, and you can leave your speakers where they are ?

[ChiroVette]

Found "one" other solution.

Hey great idea, I will try this today! Sorry I didn't get back to you yesterday, but I got back late and forgot.

There is one question about this topic I had, though that's still confusing to me. Vocal mics are omni-directional and should pick up signal from everywhere, while instrument mics, particularly the square Sennheisler 609e, is uni-directional. The SM57 has a thick bullet-shaped end with no ball on it like a vocal mic, so I would expect that the vocals would be the tracks that weren't clean, based on this new information.

Yet the vocals are much cleaner than the instrument, even though I used an SM57.

Unless I am not hearing it properly because I'm too close to it? Did the vocal tracks sound clean to you in that recording?

Anyway, I will dig out my 25' guitar cable and my 25' XLR and put the amp in the other room and try your solution later and see if it works. Thanks again!

[Peter Widdicombe]

I'm no expert on mikes, but from what they are saying the SM57 is fairly uniform, but has a peak up at higher frequencies (typically beyond normal voice) to give guitar an extra bit of sizzle. Oh, and it's cardiod pattern, not omni, so will pick up predominantly in the direction it is pointing, falling off steeply in the direction of the cable.

If your "studio area" is heavily damped with accoustic tile and carpets, etc, then you MIGHT get away with lower volumes on the amp, amp facing in the direction of room speakers, and mike pointing at the amp AWAY from room speakers. Better in another room or space, though, to avoid extraneous noise being "heard" within the room with mike.

... or in a tighter space, listen to the mix with headphones while recording.

First I'd ever heard of an ISO-Cab. Clever idea, and obviously a problem that's been wrestled with by many before ! Software solutions are much easier, and for many, you can get away with them in a mix.

[ChiroVette]

Okay, under the heading of life is weird and half this shit is just a mystery to me, I thought of trying one more thing, before moving my amplifier into the other room. I tried disabling my PC microphone, thinking maybe that low-end laptop thingamajig was mucking up the works. This didn't work, because (and I'm not sure why) disabling the microphone also disabled the USB audio. Makes no sense to me, as these should be two separate audio signals. I have to research this, though.

Anyway, something struck me as odd the other day when I was recording. Which is why I tried disabling the PC mic. When I was talking with my friend Upstate, who helped me get all set up, I noticed that the input levels on the highlighted tracks were jumping around as if I was talking into a microphone and not just on the phone, even though no mic was hooked up to the Behringer at the time, vocal or instrument.

Anyway, I forgot about it until just now, but for some reason, even when yelling at the Behringer like an idiot 5 minutes ago, the level of the track I had highlighted was no longer jumping around. So, on a whim, I set up again, and just recorded a guitar track like I was trying to do all weekend, into Waveform. For reasons I cannot even begin to fathom, it was perfect. I also noticed something else when listening to the newly successfully recorded guitar track. The waveform of the audio in the track looked normal, and graphically like all the other tracks, with spikes and lulls. The other day, I remember when I recorded the guitar tracks, not only did they sound F'd up, but the accompanying graphical waveform on the track was thin and haphazard looking. Something else I literally just remembered as I was listening just now.

Anyway, I have absolutely NO IDEA what changed. Maybe rebooting my computer a few times, closing down waveform a few times, or just the gods of music-recording decided to smile down on me. But for now at least, it's working. The only caveat is that the recording was not chronologically synced up with the rest of the tracks. But I can't take this too seriously just yet, because I had to really play around with the start times of the original tracks I recorded on Saturday and yesterday, and with various start times all over the map, there is no way to untangle all that for this project. So I just went into the new track as an experiment and subtracted 50 ms off the start time and that lined everything up.

The only way I will know where I'm at for certain is to start a brand new recording from scratch and see where I land. It may be that whatever is fixed now with the guitar sound may have also fixed the recording start time issues in the new tracks, and since they are already offset from the other day, I now had to sync them up manually.

Thanks again for all your help! I am going to start over again with a new track and see if everything continues to be all right.

[Peter Widdicombe]

This wasn't intended to be a private conversation - what techniques might other users be doing to record voice, guitar, sax, etc. when multitracking; where a microphone is used to record from ?

(Other than headphones, which may be best ?)

[Watchful]

I don't see how anyone can record vocals without headphones. The mic is going to pick up the reference tracks. I think acoustic instruments is going to be the same way.

Live recording obviously doesn't matter since you're recording everyone together anyway.

For electric guitar, I strongly recommend recording the track dry, going in with a DI, and then emulating or inserting stomps/effects/amp sims on the dry recording--just in case you change your mind later. It's also vastly easier to comp or blend in a dry guitar later if you want to change a passage.

[ChiroVette]

I don't see how anyone can record vocals without headphones. The mic is going to pick up the reference tracks. I think acoustic instruments is going to be the same way.

Yeah, for any at home recording, headphones seems to be the only way that works. Otherwise what you're playing along to in order to record becomes the ambient noise bleeding into the mic you are trying to record.

For electric guitar, I strongly recommend recording the track dry, going in with a DI, and then emulating or inserting stomps/effects/amp sims on the dry recording--just in case you change your mind later. It's also vastly easier to comp or blend in a dry guitar later if you want to change a passage.

As I said already in this thread, that won't work for me. I hate the sound I get going DI. Acoustic guitar, fine. Not perfect, but I can live with it. If I have to go direct with my electric guitar, I just won't bother recording my guitar, which means I have no use for recording software like Waveform in the first place.

Emulation and plug-ins have come a long way, but they're not there yet. The only sound I want to record for my guitar is exactly the sound coming from my amp, which requires micing my amp.

[ChiroVette]

This wasn't intended to be a private conversation

Of course! I'm actually hoping other people join the conversation like you and @Watchful did.

[Watchful]

ChiroVette, totally understand. I'd say your position on recording guitar puts you in line with roughly 98% of guitarists!

Also, I think Peter was inviting others to join in, and wasn't directed at you at all!

Peter, by the way, is one of the nicest and most helpful people on KVR: always patient, always willing to listen, and invariably adds considerable meat to a conversation. I've learned a ton from him, and he's even gotten me to abandon old ways of doing things for much, much better ways.

He doesn't work for Tracktion, but they ought to compensate him for the years of advice he's donated here. Maybe a nice tee-shirt.

[Watchful]

There is one question about this topic I had, though that's still confusing to me. Vocal mics are omni-directional and should pick up signal from everywhere, while instrument mics, particularly the square Sennheisler 609e, is uni-directional. The SM57 has a thick bullet-shaped end with no ball on it like a vocal mic, so I would expect that the vocals would be the tracks that weren't clean, based on this new information.

The SM57 is cardioid, not omnidirectional, which means there's a huge dead spot right behind its base. If you point the SM57 at your amp--and have fun figuring out the distance you want from the amp, because as you've likely discovered, moving it closer or further can dynamically change the sound in all sorts of creative ways--anyway, if you point it at your amp, there's a giant dead spot behind the mic. You could sit there and play and should likely not be heard very much at all. This might help you a lot.

I like cardioids for this very reason--they greatly reduce the amount of ambient sound coming into the mic from the back and sides. That's likely why you're appreciating the SM57's ability to get a clean sound. The Sennheiser is a super-cardioid, so it will pick up some audio behind it.