KVR Audio

Ned Bouhalassa · Post by **Ned Bouhalassa** » Tue May 31, 2005 7:43 pm

I can't recommend V.I. Control's forums enough: http://www.vi-control.net/forum/forum.php

Markleford · Post by **Markleford** » Tue May 31, 2005 7:45 pm

The thing to know about NSS is that they don't want anyone plugging a product there unless they've paid for banner ads. So it's sort of an "insider's club".

This reached eye-rolling proportions for me the other day when the NSKit dev's posts were repeatedly deleted without explanation.

I don't see why locking the thread with an explanation as the last post is never considered as a moderation option there. Quite the definition of "heavy-handed".

The bottom line is NSS is run as a business, so they're welcome to run it any way they feel like. Not that I agree with that model, and they're now starting to get a bit of pushback on their policies. It all comes around. I suppose we all gravitate to the forums we feel most comfortable with.

True, there are a lot of knowledgable people there (as Alan says), as well as some big name developers. You could conceivably swoop in their and pick their brains on your ideas, since you don't have a commercial library yet. Or maybe not.

On the other hand VI Control is filled with NSS-expatriate whiners. Just can't win these days, eh? But again, there are some good brains to pick there if you steer clear of the bitterness.

Get what you can where you can. Just keep your head low!

- m

Bela D Media · Post by **Bela D Media** » Tue May 31, 2005 10:55 pm

Markleford wrote:The thing to know about NSS is that they don't want anyone plugging a product there unless they've paid for banner ads. So it's sort of an "insider's club". - m

Why don't you try to plug your product or a product on EQ mag or Keyboard mag, etc and see how FREE it is.

Get my point? You see all the banners above your head? That is what pays for KvR. That is what pays for NSS. Why in the world do you see it as wrong that you must pay to advertise a product? 60% of our sales (and there are many) are because of PAID banners at NSS and KVR. Don't you think the guys that own the sites should make a few pennies since it is their forum that is making developers $$$?

Now someone comes along and says, "Hey guys buy my product dudes!!!".... think for a second. Why did he post that at NSS? Is it because he knows he can reach 150,000+ members that buy that type of product? Yeah, I think so. Now, is it fair to myself and all the other devs that get our credit cards smacked with advertising bills for this joker to come along and try to sell products without paying for advertising? The same advertising real devs are paying that keep the place he wants to Spam alive?

How could there be anything you could say other than..."Good point man!"

Markleford · Post by **Markleford** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:03 am

Bela D Media wrote:Why don't you try to plug your product or a product on EQ mag or Keyboard mag, etc and see how FREE it is.
[...]
How could there be anything you could say other than..."Good point man!"

Or I could say, "I've gotten a FREE plug in EQ magazine for my products simply because that's the spirit in which I contribute to the music community. Same for my two FREE plugs in other international music magazines."

But that's probably not the answer you're looking for, even if it's 100% true.

Why in the world do you see it as wrong that you must pay to advertise a product?

Because sometimes it's a grey line between "advertisment" and "advocacy", and sometimes NSS rules a bit on the heavy-handed side.

Nothing more nothing less.

It's certainly possible to moderate a forum with a lighter hand than NSS does while respecting both developers and advocates. Other forums do this quite successfully with just a bit more attention and sensitivity to the pulse of the community.

All online forums are not merely vehicles for revenue. All online forums aren't intended to be pay-for-play institutions like certain music magazines that give out good reviews for advertisers.

However, as I said, it's within the rights of NSS to run their business any way they like, and they will attract a clientelle that is comfortable with their policies.

Now, is it fair to myself and all the other devs that get our credit cards smacked with advertising bills for this joker to come along and try to sell products without paying for advertising?

Is the joker getting the same profile of advertising than banner ad devs get? Hardly.

Does the joker's spam to a forum look as professional or reputable as a paid ad? Hardly.

Does any joker with suspect product have the same potential to sell a product to an informed customer that asks to hear the goods and research the opinions of others? Hardly.

So there's no need to "school" me on the role of banner ads and revenue. Yes, I know they pay for the forums we love. I truly recognize their importance, and might even weigh the impression they have on customers with more gravity than yourself, if that's possible!

By way of practical example, is it fair that a company with a comparable product to yours could potentially outsell you based upon a word-of-mouth campaign versus your targeted banner ads? Sure it's fair. Infuriating, certainly, but allowable in the free market.

On the other hand, it's just as maddening but equally "fair" to see an inferior product in *any* industry dominate its space simply because it has a bigger advertising budget behind it.

Spam needs to be controlled, yes. I help handle that here at KVR. But the presence of banner ads should not be so intrinsically intertwined with editorial policy, in my estimation, and I think NSS has caught a few innocent advocates in the crossfire thanks to their "nuke 'em from orbit" policy, and that's what I think they should be a lot more attentive to. But in all fairness, a lot of them were taunting a sleeping dragon and begging to be immolated, so they got what they deserved: can't complain much about them.

But that's just an opinion. One that I've voiced on NSS itself, in fact, but that thread was deleted.

Insistence on infallability by attempting to erase evidence of dissent is also the poorest choice for moderation. Editorial totalitarianism is for the pathologically insensitive.

But like I said before, we go with what we're comfortable with. Mind, you do have plenty of "good points, man!", and I can't argue with their spirit from the perspective of a developer, but there are some equally good flip-sides to these coins (namely, from my position as a user and forum moderator, as well as developer) that are as important to ensuring that the system works equally well for all participants.

- m

Spe3D · Post by **Spe3D** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:55 pm

Ned Bouhalassa wrote:I can't recommend V.I. Control's forums enough: http://www.vi-control.net/forum/forum.php

Thank you Ned, I will browse this forum too

Best regards,

Peter

Spe3D · Post by **Spe3D** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:59 pm

Over all I think I will tweak the auditorium a little just to add some extra sample related content and area to keep as per my request together. The poll did not bring up too much interest at k-v-r so it shows over all only one half of the story is mainly at k-v-r while the other half is floating amoung differnt forums on the net - I am almost considering a dedictate forum just for samples - news - forums and not as heavy moderated as N/S I will think some more on it.

Best regards,

Peter

soulata · Post by **soulata** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:36 pm

northernssounds feels more like garritan/spectrasonics forum than anything else these days.

IMO

k

gugliel · Post by **gugliel** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:01 pm

Another voice to say that northern sounds has fallen very far in their drive for advertising. I'm not even a developer, just a samples user and very interested in discussions, and some of my posts have been deleted. Go there less and less often now, -- which is why I'm reading this thread!

Also -- those developers who pay to advertise want to reach users ... users want free discussion and censorship only when abuse is occurring ... so even the paying developers ought to be encouraging the paranoid administration to get less heavy handed!

kpr · Post by **kpr** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 5:40 am

According to Ben (kvr) the Samples, Sampling & Sample Libraries forum at kvr is the right place for everything about sampling. If you collect all the existing how to and making of informations from the several company forums you might have a decent start for a FAQ page.

Dave Kerzner from SR shares a lot of his skills in his postings, so just copy/paste them. Certainly you should mention that it comes from him. You can do the same with everything I´m writing about the "making of" our libraries. Then there is Simon Cann, the writer of the "How to make noise". He is the co-author of "Sample This! Second Edition" and I´m sure he will allow to discuss some of the book chapters here. Recently zvon did some workshop-alike posting too.

Then you can collect all coming in questions to get all specialists the chance to answer them. There are a lot of musicians here with personal experiences in converting, individual sample editing for specific songs, etc., and this can be the place to mention this all.

Perhaps you should ask Ben (kvr) to make the moderation for the "how to sample" subcategory here.

Spe3D · Post by **Spe3D** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:57 pm

kpr wrote:
Perhaps you should ask Ben (kvr) to make the moderation for the "how to sample" subcategory here.

Nope

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=89712

and he has a point - plus the time the poll ran for not a great deal of interest was shown. plus this forum here is pretty dead compared to other parts of k-v-r

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

meeks · Post by **meeks** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 4:38 pm

Bela D Media wrote:
How could there be anything you could say other than..."Good point man!"

Nothing wrong with advertising...not the point. I would not of even heard of your company if it was not for NS.

Its the (openly obvious) deleation of competitors posts on a supposingly open forum (free to join by anyone) that skews favor (much like the acidic taste in your mouth after a bad election). "We will tell you what you like and if you do not like it will ban your senior status or delaet your posts from the forum"...are the stories we hear over and over every few weeks.

People do not like dictatorships.

NS is like a EQ mag or Keyboard mag...its fun to flip through and take a look at the advertisments...but I (nor most here IMO) take any of the rest of there shit seriously (more like EM). You really have to dig through these mags to find any content...much like NS...but it is there.

Spe3D · Post by **Spe3D** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:23 pm

This site looks pretty cool

I found it yesterday

http://homerecording.com/bbs/index.php?

Not really sample total as such - but got some good topics to look around in.

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:39 am

Plenty free samples for brass and woodwinds:
http://theremin.music.uiowa.edu/MIS.html

dandean · Post by **dandean** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:47 pm

AlleyCatz wrote:
Alan Lastufka wrote:Where is East West (and don't just say they left because now they aren't allowed to post either), where is Dan Dean, where is the NSKit guy, where is Franky, and all the other developers who have been run out by you know who

I don't post on NSS or any forum on a regular basis anymore.

Just for the record, I used to post on NSS somewhat frequently (however, if you check my record this year, there are 2 posts and in 2004 there were 6 posts). Although I don't specifically recall just how many posts I have actually made, I believe some have been deleted, as have entire threads and posts by NSS'ers which may have been DD positive. If they have not been deleted, then they have been relegated to the "off topic" section or given the "topic closed" designation, at which point they fall off the end of the Earth.

A number of developers and NSS members noticed "missing" posts and threads probably over 2 years ago. In fact, about 2 years ago, one of the most high profile NS members and I posted "sensitive" replies just to see how long it would take before they were deleted. It took only a few minutes, and this was at midnight Pacific Time.

I have tried to make this and other points subtly over the past 2 years, but have been constantly attacked and "astroturfed", so I changed my policy on posting. There is no upside to it.

It is also interesting that although I have never been banned from NSS, that I'm not allowed to view other specific developers' forums. Not that I actually would view them, or find it worthwhile reading their content, still I have somehow been blocked. Really, its OK. I don't care.

When I want dinner, I like to have the choice what kind of cuisine I feel like having. Further, I like the ability to be able to choose the restaurant I want to eat at. Even further, I like the freedom of choice of what items on the menu I want to order. At some sample sites, there is basically one choice. So, why be able to order only a Cheese Sandwich when you really want a Vindaloo?

If you want a newspaper with stories cut out of it before you read it, there are probably still places in the world that practice this. If you want to live in a world where "new speak" is the official language, its up to you. Personally, I find it unacceptable having others define my reality.

Thanks Alan for the comment on the new CD. We are getting airplay on jazz stations around the US and elsewhere. I really am passionate about making great libraries but have missed the opportunity to play, which is why I got into this business in the first place.

DD

SampleScience · Post by **SampleScience** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:00 pm

Samplecity have been there for a long time:

http://www.samplecity.net/forum/portal_index.php

Recommend a good sample forum