Ableton LIVE 10 ... Officially Announced. (plus: Buy LIVE 9 now with 20% discount, get LIVE 10 free)

[Daags]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BaebTi8luM0/

if that's the link that inspired this:

According to that, the worst scenario, where most of the efforts have been targeted to the DJ- and live presentation, seem to be reality.

I'd say you have a propensity for the melodramatic, not to mention a knack for making inferrences lacking any real support.

That glove is as much a compositional tool as it is a performance tool .... no more an indicator of 'most efforts being targeted to the DJ and live presentation' than someone using a midi keyboard and some faders.

"...knack for making inferrences lacking any real support".
Well, I have to follow your comments is this forum carefully in the future, and point out immediately if I see useless writing without any real support.

be my guest

[Harry_HH]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BaebTi8luM0/

if that's the link that inspired this:

According to that, the worst scenario, where most of the efforts have been targeted to the DJ- and live presentation, seem to be reality.

I'd say you have a propensity for the melodramatic, not to mention a knack for making inferrences lacking any real support.

That glove is as much a compositional tool as it is a performance tool .... no more an indicator of 'most efforts being targeted to the DJ and live presentation' than someone using a midi keyboard and some faders.

"...knack for making inferrences lacking any real support".
Well, I have to follow your comments is this forum carefully in the future, and point out immediately if I see useless writing without any real support.

be my guest

You too, mine.

[Daags]

^^^ ... yep. I've already been your guest though, let me remind you:

You saw someone using an input device, and came away thinking, and stating "According to that, the worst scenario, where most of the efforts have been targeted to the DJ- and live presentation, seem to be reality."

if I ever say something that insane, based on so little, you won't need to be my guest ... I'll be my own guest and just delete my KVR account and take a hammer to my router, for the good of the internet's collective IQ.

[Harry_HH]

^^^ ... yep. I've already been your guest though, let me remind you:

You saw someone using an input device, and came away thinking, and stating "According to that, the worst scenario, where most of the efforts have been targeted to the DJ- and live presentation, seem to be reality."

if I ever say something that insane, based on so little, you won't need to be my guest ... I'll be my own guest and just delete my KVR account and take a hammer to my router, for the good of the internet's collective IQ.

Be my guest.

[.jon]

What?! Firstly, Bitwig's modulators cover much more ground than just basic LFOs which can in no way be replaced by "automation or recording the parameter tweaking". In addition to various types of LFOs, yhey include ADS(H)R envelopes, step sequencers, envelope & waveform followers, key trackers, etc. All of them can cross-modulate all the others, can be routed through mathematical functions, etc. There's very little you CAN'T do with them and they can breathe new life into otherwise static patches or VSTs that don't have enough LFOs or their LFOs can't modulate certain parameters.

You can actually build a synth using just the DC Offset device and modulators, like so:


So, coming back to Live, YOU might not see the need to have LFO included in native devices, but many of us do see it. It's a step it right direction, even if that would be a fraction of what Bitwig has it would already be very useful.

That's a lot of frothing at the mouth and not much subject matter. Do you realize that you're only listing the specs, which everyone is already aware of? How cool that you can modulate the modulators, and even use functions!

I don't design otherwise static patches that need new life, that makes no sense whatsoever. Why even bother in the first place with patches that are too static for you? I also don't use synths that lack the features I need. Even my analog mono has tons of modulators that can modulate each other. I'd be interested in examples where using DAW modulators instead of the ones built into plugins would expand the musical possibilities in any meaningful way. I feel like people just want something without thinking if they actually need it.

And again, since reality seems to escape most- M4L already goes far beyond Bitwigs basic modulation system.

[antic604]

That's a lot of frothing at the mouth and not much subject matter. Do you realize that you're only listing the specs, which everyone is already aware of? How cool that you can modulate the modulators, and even use functions!

I don't design otherwise static patches that need new life, that makes no sense whatsoever. Why even bother in the first place with patches that are too static for you? I also don't use synths that lack the features I need. Even my analog mono has tons of modulators that can modulate each other. I'd be interested in examples where using DAW modulators instead of the ones built into plugins would expand the musical possibilities in any meaningful way. I feel like people just want something without thinking if they actually need it.

And again, since reality seems to escape most- M4L already goes far beyond Bitwigs basic modulation system.

I'm "listing the specs" simply because you seem to imply that adding LFO to Live's native devices doesn't make sense, whereas I think it's simply a step towards more complex modulators system like in Bitwig - they also started with simpler LFO Mod device. You seem to be very fortunate to be able to create everything you need with the tools you have, but I'm not. Just today I was working on a track where I've added original dBlue's Glitch plugin and it lacked some life, because the parameters of the FX are static. So I've added few LFOs to repeat time, gate length and mix parameters, tweaked the length of the sequence, trigger point, shapes and cycles of the LFOs and suddenly it sounds much more lively, seemingly random, but repeatable.

So yeah, I *actually* need it. If you don't, then simply don't use it but let everyone else have it.

All right?

Ok.

[pottering]

Just today I was working on a track where I've added original dBlue's Glitch plugin and it lacked some life, because the parameters of the FX are static. So I've added few LFOs to repeat time, gate length and mix parameters, tweaked the length of the sequence, trigger point, shapes and cycles of the LFOs and suddenly it sounds much more lively, seemingly random, but repeatable.

So yeah, I *actually* need it. If you don't, then simply don't use it but let everyone else have it.

All right?

Ok.

You can do all this in Live, with Clip Modulation (not "automation", which is a separate thing) in all the versions, and with M4L in Suite.

There other ways of doing it too, from "ghost clips" to 3rd party plugins like LFOTool.

Sure, BW's system is easier to notice it is there, but it is not unique or new.

[pdxindy]

I don't design otherwise static patches that need new life, that makes no sense whatsoever. Why even bother in the first place with patches that are too static for you? I also don't use synths that lack the features I need. Even my analog mono has tons of modulators that can modulate each other. I'd be interested in examples where using DAW modulators instead of the ones built into plugins would expand the musical possibilities in any meaningful way. I feel like people just want something without thinking if they actually need it.

And again, since reality seems to escape most- M4L already goes far beyond Bitwigs basic modulation system.

I prefer to use my synths for modulation... however, there are lots of parameters in various synths that cannot be modulated. In Bazille for example, the Lag Generators cannot be modulated. Some synths like RePro-1 has fairly limited modulation. The modulators in Bitwig work great for these cases. Also, if you want to layer a couple synths, and have a common modulator(s) control both.

Lots of analog monosynths do not have tons of modulators that can modulate each other. And with Eurorack, it aint cheap to add lots of modulation modules. Bitwig can send midi or CV to control either.

M4L has nowhere near the ease of use of Bitwig. It also uses more CPU, is less stable and is a completely separate program that needs to be installed. Assigning modulation in Bitwig is much more elegant than in Live. Also, Bitwig modulation can be per voice with Bitwig instruments... that is something Live and M4L cannot do.

[Daags]

Clip Modulation

M4L in Suite

"ghost clips"

3rd party plugins like LFOTool.

Sure, BW's system is easier to notice it is there, but it is not unique or new.

[pdxindy]

Just today I was working on a track where I've added original dBlue's Glitch plugin and it lacked some life, because the parameters of the FX are static. So I've added few LFOs to repeat time, gate length and mix parameters, tweaked the length of the sequence, trigger point, shapes and cycles of the LFOs and suddenly it sounds much more lively, seemingly random, but repeatable.

So yeah, I *actually* need it. If you don't, then simply don't use it but let everyone else have it.

All right?

Ok.

You can do all this in Live, with Clip Modulation (not "automation", which is a separate thing) in all the versions, and with M4L in Suite.

There other ways of doing it too, from "ghost clips" to 3rd party plugins like LFOTool.

Sure, BW's system is easier to notice it is there, but it is not unique or new.

You can also do manual takes and comping in Live, but a DAW with a takes/comping system is a helluva lot easier even though there is nothing unique or new there.

Bitwig's modulation system is integrated, elegant and fun. No need for workarounds, 'tricks', multiple tracks etc. I used Live for years, and Bitwig is flat out better in this area. Live should learn from it!

[antic604]

You can do all this in Live, with Clip Modulation (not "automation", which is a separate thing) in all the versions, and with M4L in Suite.

There other ways of doing it too, from "ghost clips" to 3rd party plugins like LFOTool.

Ok, you convinved me - Live doesn't need native LFO, since we have so many other, simple, straightforward and obvious soultions!

[pottering]

You can do all this in Live, with Clip Modulation (not "automation", which is a separate thing) in all the versions, and with M4L in Suite.

There other ways of doing it too, from "ghost clips" to 3rd party plugins like LFOTool.

Ok, you convinved me - Live doesn't need native LFO, since we have so many other, simple, straightforward and obvious soultions!

Well, yes, they ARE "simple, straightforward and obvious", they are in the manual and are quite easy to use.

BW's system being easier doesn't suddenly make the previously existing stuff "hard to use".

And is BW's easier really? Looking at BW's site (https://www.bitwig.com/en/community/lea ... orial.html) it looks like it needs a similar number of steps to set up as using a M4L device.

You click a slot, then select a modulator from a big list, then click the "assign" button in the modulator, then click the parameter you want modulated.

With M4L, you add a modulation device anywhere, select the parameter from a drop down list (some devices let you pick parameters from devices in other tracks), or click a "map" button (just like "assign" in BW) and click the parameter you want to modulate in the VST's GUI. Not that much harder.

Also seems BW's modulators are locked to the device they are added to, while M4L devices are independent and can be Racked and saved as re-usable presets. So everything has their pros and cons.

Seems to me all this discussion hinges on whether one thinks M4L sucks or is awesome. I think it is awesome and use it all the time.

[pottering]

deleted

[.jon]

I don't design otherwise static patches that need new life, that makes no sense whatsoever. Why even bother in the first place with patches that are too static for you? I also don't use synths that lack the features I need. Even my analog mono has tons of modulators that can modulate each other. I'd be interested in examples where using DAW modulators instead of the ones built into plugins would expand the musical possibilities in any meaningful way. I feel like people just want something without thinking if they actually need it.

And again, since reality seems to escape most- M4L already goes far beyond Bitwigs basic modulation system.

I prefer to use my synths for modulation... however, there are lots of parameters in various synths that cannot be modulated. In Bazille for example, the Lag Generators cannot be modulated. Some synths like RePro-1 has fairly limited modulation. The modulators in Bitwig work great for these cases. Also, if you want to layer a couple synths, and have a common modulator(s) control both.

Lots of analog monosynths do not have tons of modulators that can modulate each other. And with Eurorack, it aint cheap to add lots of modulation modules. Bitwig can send midi or CV to control either.

M4L has nowhere near the ease of use of Bitwig. It also uses more CPU, is less stable and is a completely separate program that needs to be installed. Assigning modulation in Bitwig is much more elegant than in Live. Also, Bitwig modulation can be per voice with Bitwig instruments... that is something Live and M4L cannot do.

Thanks! This is a well presented argument with several valid reasons. Some of them don't apply to my use case, but I'm happy there is Bitwig for those who need the DAW to augment their limited plugins.

Guess it all comes down to choosing the right tools that work for you. Dreaming and demanding for stuff that doesn't exist isn't very productive, when a working solution already exists.

[xbitz]

With M4L, you add a modulation device anywhere, select the parameter from a drop down list (some devices let you pick parameters from devices in other tracks), or click a "map" button (just like "assign" in BW) and click the parameter you want to modulate in the VST's GUI. Not that much harder.

AFAIK it will be changed in some future version, workaround currently is: MIDI CC(signal from a modulated MIDI CC device) can be sent to anywhere (typically to a MIDI CC modulator in some device)