any future for MacBooks in music production ?

[Delta Sign]

Yeah, I think this forum is actually really well moderated, which is not exactly an easy task. Props to Hink and the other mods for doing a great job

However, I do agree that the rules apply more to some than to others. I mean, I get it, of course someone who is new will be judged more harshly than someone who has been here a long time, but I do think the limits get stretched a bit far sometimes.

I think it's best to just ignore the usual suspects.

[jancivil]

I'm sure the T2 chip will be great and glorious when they figured out the kinks. But how bad is the situation for audio at the moment? Is it like everybody has problems?

/C

I have had absolutely zero problems with a 2018 MacBook Pro with a T2 chip

I have pretty smooth sailing, relative to all other experiences with doing music on a computer.
The T2 chip does not appear to cause any issue here, based in the symptoms I've seen reported.

[jancivil]

Pal, I spend 8 or 9 hours every day on a MacPro and I can promise you that over the last 7 years I've had more problems in any given week on every one of those Macs than I've had in a full year on any PC I have owned over the same period. To be fair, many, if not most, of those problems are not specifically related to anything Apple, they are a consequence of the fact that almost all software these days is developed for PC, then ported to Mac. Consequently, a lot applications don't work nearly as well on Mac. But that's the reality of the situation and something that must factor into any decision about which platform to use.

Typical failure of your engine to reason, if there is such a thing in you.
Your work computer has zero relevance to anybody else here, per se.

The software you use at work, [whoever is] the administrator of that machine, the vintage of the machine, may all be 100% irrelevant. (It doesn't even appear to be your computer. Obvious fallacy of not knowing what everybody's experience is yet you act as though you must just never occurs to you, does it.)

Right now it looks more like a Native Instruments-oriented experience of platform in more than one way suggests a primacy now of the Mac hardware; particularly the graphics hardware. Problems occur on the Windows platform that either never appear or are rather rare on Mac. Native Access, additionally. I can't know if that's the actual order of business there but the end product being happier in its orientation to the hardware can't be ignored.
This is not the only observation I could make. This is besides the numerous factors of Windows which do not have an equivalence on Mac at all. I did notice one thing which its developers must not understand properly, from a Windows bias, <run as administrator> is not really a thing (a necessary distinction) here, but it was for [Hauptwerk organ] them, and a definite deal-killer/show stopper.

The notion 'developed for PC, then ported to Mac' should by now, in 2019, be a fairly deprecated notion. It sounds very 2004 to me, basically.

I have literally no software which would by nature compel me to rethink my choice of platform, which is a choice I made around the beginning of 2006 because I found I was having fewer issues and less to worry about optimizing a computer of that vintage for music.

Your personal pride in your superior accomplishment in understanding of these matters, as per usual, is pure Dunning-Kruger Effect.

[telecode]

And the smart ones can buy a PC (which stands for Proper Computer).

Yes, of course, there has never in the history of PCs been one that has crashed, and Windows has never, ever had issues because of PC hardware.

Pal, I spend 8 or 9 hours every day on a MacPro and I can promise you that over the last 7 years I've had more problems in any given week on every one of those Macs than I've had in a full year on any PC I have owned over the same period. To be fair, many, if not most, of those problems are not specifically related to anything Apple, they are a consequence of the fact that almost all software these days is developed for PC, then ported to Mac. Consequently, a lot applications don't work nearly as well on Mac. But that's the reality of the situation and something that must factor into any decision about which platform to use.

I use beta builds of Windows, via the Insider programme, and my $500 laptop is still more reliable and stable than the $5000 MacPro I endure at work. It works better, too. There may have been a time when Macs were more reliable than PCs, although I have never found that to be the case, but these days Windows is miles ahead of macOS in pretty much every way. If you want to kid yourself that it is otherwise, you are living in a fool's paradise (great Oingo Boingo song, BTW).

Oh man. I hate OS wars threads. I use pretty much all OS platforms for work and personal use.

Windows is miles ahead of macOS in pretty much every way.

They are two completely different products and platforms and can not be compared like that. its like saying my Chrysler is more reliable than your Lexus. Well, that's really a useless and pointless comparison and statement.

That being said, the old days when Apple was the primary go to platform for music (and other creative related tasks ) are over. Pretty much all vendors make and support Windows platform with their products. In some cases they are doing much more work and updating products and drivers for their Windows customers than Mac customers.

But, Windows OS itself has become a big honking chunk of bloat ever since 8.x and all this integration with online stores and cloud services. The last decent lean Windows OS was WIndows 7.x.

I think how "stable" you music product system is, heavily depends what you use it for and how much different types of applications you have installed on it. If you use your laptop/computer for music + gaming + chatting + what not.. it will most probably not be as reliable as a system that only gets used for music and you dont have any other stuff running on it that you don't need. It really does't matter whether its Windows or Mac.

My main setup is a Mac mini and the thing is stable and has been doing the job its tasked to do without issue. But I only use it for music and have music stuff installed on it. I use other systems for other daily tasks.

[telecode]

It's not lack of moderation IMO , it's who it does and doesn't get applied to. Which I guess means that even the mods are just following the rules and exceptions passed down to them.

IMO moderation here is far better than Gearslutz.

Indeed, 'BONES' seems to be able to operate with impunity here.

He gotta than cyber punk rock & roll thing happening..

[jancivil]

This is not the only observation I could make.

Another is, I've seen people complain about how Steinberg has changed the toolbar for their DAWs to favor OSX ways.
Cubase originally was ported to Windows from Atari iirc.

[Deep Purple]

This is not the only observation I could make.

Another is, I've seen people complain about how Steinberg has changed the toolbar for their DAWs to favor OSX ways.
Cubase originally was ported to Windows from Atari iirc.

I'm not sure if it was ported, but it was available only on Atari and Mac for a couple of versions before it became available for Windows.

[superscan]

I have a lot of plugins and I don’t recall any being Mac or PC-Only (exception of McDSP having their tape plug only out for Mac first, but now they have both.) I don’t have legacy 32 bit. My point is if you have a problem with your PC or Mac platform you can change. Obviously if you use Logic as your DAW, you’ll have to go the Hackintosh route. Vote with your wallet.

[planetearth]

I've worked with, on, or repaired Macs and PCs. Both have strengths and weaknesses. I like much of what Apple does (in principle, at least), and I hope their market share continues to climb.

But with the coming of Apple's own ARM processors, I wonder how many customers and plug-in developers they'll lose. Current software either won't run at all, or it will take a serious performance hit on the new processors, so once again, Apple's customers will have to buy (or "upgrade") all their software again. And the devs will have to do it well before Apple's customers do, to have plug-ins ready (and relatively bug-free) when the customers switch processors and OSes. This will make the third time in 20 years, for some of them. In and of itself that's not much of a problem, but I've seen threads where some users are concerned that smaller developers can't keep re-coding their plug-ins into new versions while still offering support on the old ones.

Please note: I am not saying (or even implying) that "PCs are better because they don't change processor or OS code bases". This has nothing to do with these stupid "OS wars" the fanbois want to fight. This is just a genuine concern that smaller developers simply may not have the resources to learn programming for ARM processors, and still offer support on Intel processor-based plug-ins.

Again, anyone who wants to make this into yet another "Mac-vs-PC" argument, please move along. This isn't about that. Microsoft is also looking at ARM processors too, but that version of Windows can (and is expected to) be used alongside the current version. Since Apple owns the OS and will soon be making the processors, users won't have another option if they don't want to buy an ARM-based computer.

Steve

[Deep Purple]

But with the coming of Apple's own ARM processors, I wonder how many customers and plug-in developers they'll lose.

That rumor has been going around for about 9 years now, and Apple still hasn't made the move. Probably not worth worrying about it until there's something more definite in the works.

[planetearth]

But with the coming of Apple's own ARM processors, I wonder how many customers and plug-in developers they'll lose.

That rumor has been going around for about 9 years now, and Apple still hasn't made the move. Probably not worth worrying about it until there's something more definite in the works.

The rumor may have been going around for a while, but even Bloomberg and Intel believe Apple will make the switch by 2020: https://www.forbes.com/sites/marcochiap ... e1b3cd1d30

https://hothardware.com/news/intel-expe ... us-in-2020

And Intel probably has better...um..."intel" on this than any of us here. They stand to lose millions if this happens, so I'm sure they're not just sitting around, waiting for the shoe to drop.

Most of the reports lately don't say "if Apple makes the move...", they say "when Apple makes the move...", especially since Apple is also moving to "Marzipan" (a universal application ecosystem) by 2021, apparently.

On the upside, once plug-in developers master "Marzipan", they won't have to re-code plug-ins to work on iOS devices.

Steve

[CircuitTree]

So in other words from the few comments above, MacBooks do not have a future in music production?

[BONES]

Pretty much. But you can't say anything negative about Mac without the fanbois getting stuck into you. It's the way of the world.

Typical failure of your engine to reason, if there is such a thing in you. Your work computer has zero relevance to anybody else here, per se.

I'm sure you wish that were true but wishing doesn't make it so. My experience at work compared to that at home is completely relevant. I run the same software using the same licenses - Adobe Creative Cloud lets you install on two machines and my employer is happy for us to use their license on our personal machines at home. So when I work on a project at the office, then bring it home and open on my laptop, I get a perfect comparison between the two computers and OSes. It's pretty much a practical benchmarking test.

The software you use at work, [whoever is] the administrator of that machine, the vintage of the machine, may all be 100% irrelevant. (It doesn't even appear to be your computer. Obvious fallacy of not knowing what everybody's experience is yet you act as though you must just never occurs to you, does it.)

Are you serious? There is not a single thought expressed through that paragraph that even makes sense. That said, I would love to see you explain your reasoning, how using a MacPro running macOS does not give me any insight into the strengths and weaknesses of that system. Because if it is irrelevant when I do it, anything you say must, by extension, also be irrelevant. So why even bother if that's how you see it?

Right now it looks more like a Native Instruments-oriented experience of platform in more than one way suggests a primacy now of the Mac hardware; particularly the graphics hardware.

The "Mac hardware" you speak of is a tiny subset of PC hardware, all off the shelf components - CPU, RAM, storage and graphics - and not even close to the best of it. So, again, you make zero sense.

Problems occur on the Windows platform that either never appear or are rather rare on Mac.

Really? Name one.

Native Access, additionally. I can't know if that's the actual order of business there but the end product being happier in its orientation to the hardware can't be ignored.

Who says it is? You can't just invent facts to support your hypothesis. Native Access works perfectly on both my bandmate's desktop and my laptop machine, each with vastly different internals.

This is not the only observation I could make. This is besides the numerous factors of Windows which do not have an equivalence on Mac at all.

By which I assume you mean all the things Windows can do that macOS can't? Like touchscreen support?

I did notice one thing which its developers must not understand properly, from a Windows bias, <run as administrator> is not really a thing (a necessary distinction) here, but it was for [Hauptwerk organ] them, and a definite deal-killer/show stopper.

Sorry, I can't decipher this, either. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

The notion 'developed for PC, then ported to Mac' should by now, in 2019, be a fairly deprecated notion. It sounds very 2004 to me, basically.

Why? It's a reality and I see it on a daily basis when some simple thing takes After Effects down on my MacPro that it handles with aplomb on my PC. Things that seem to be related to the Mac's retarded graphics drivers.

I have literally no software which would by nature compel me to rethink my choice of platform, which is a choice I made around the beginning of 2006 because I found I was having fewer issues and less to worry about optimizing a computer of that vintage for music.

So you want us to consider porting issues irrelevant in 2019 yet we should believe that your 13 year old assessment is still relevant today? My experience is from two minutes ago, it's bang up to date (and by-and-large consistent with the previous 20-odd years).

Your personal pride in your superior accomplishment in understanding of these matters, as per usual, is pure Dunning-Kruger Effect.

You're suggesting your 13 year old assessment is still valid compared to my ongoing, daily experience and I'm the one suffering the delusions of superiority? Sure honey, let's have it your way. Everyone who disagrees with you must be of lower intelligence because it couldn't possibly be that your every thought is anything less than perfection, could it, sweetie? I imagine that's why you never feel the need to provide any evidence - because the facts you make up are bound to be superior to any actual truth.

[BONES]

They are two completely different products and platforms and can not be compared like that. its like saying my Chrysler is more reliable than your Lexus. Well, that's really a useless and pointless comparison and statement.

No, it's like saying every Chrysler I have owned over the last 20 years has been more reliable than the Lexus I've been driving for work over the same period. It's not some one-off experience but a consistent experience across many different machines and set-ups over many, many years. It's not a mixed bag, like sometimes the Mac is better and sometimes it's not, it is every Mac when compared against every PC I've used in 20-odd years. I could spend pages giving you specific examples but it would still be pointless because you aren't interested in reality, just in reinforcing your misguided beliefs.

But, Windows OS itself has become a big honking chunk of bloat ever since 8.x and all this integration with online stores and cloud services. The last decent lean Windows OS was WIndows 7.x.

Sorry but you are completely, 100% wrong. The reality is the complete opposite, Windows 8/10 uses one-third fewer system resources than Windows 7 and half that of Windows XP. Windows is leaner than it's ever been. Yes, you get a bit more stuff in it now than you used to but in terms of being a good OS that frees up as many system resources as possible for your applications, Windows only gets better over time.

I think how "stable" you music product system is, heavily depends what you use it for and how much different types of applications you have installed on it.

Except I'm not talking about music, I'm talking about the same things I do at work, which are far more system-intensive than music. Things like Cinema 4D, Adobe After Effects and those kinds of applications.

My main setup is a Mac mini and the thing is stable and has been doing the job its tasked to do without issue. But I only use it for music and have music stuff installed on it. I use other systems for other daily tasks.

Well, I have one PC that I use for everything and it is more reliable than most people's cars. I don't need to keep it lean and clean to make sure it works well, it just does. It's been many years since I felt the need to do any of that stuff. I can focus on what I want to do with complete confidence.

[BONES]

But with the coming of Apple's own ARM processors, I wonder how many customers and plug-in developers they'll lose. Current software either won't run at all, or it will take a serious performance hit on the new processors, so once again, Apple's customers will have to buy (or "upgrade") all their software again. And the devs will have to do it well before Apple's customers do, to have plug-ins ready (and relatively bug-free) when the customers switch processors and OSes. This will make the third time in 20 years, for some of them. In and of itself that's not much of a problem, but I've seen threads where some users are concerned that smaller developers can't keep re-coding their plug-ins into new versions while still offering support on the old ones.

The thing is, Microsoft are doing the same. They already have a version of Windows 10 for ARM and there are devices you can buy right now that run it. No-one is supporting it now but as it gains popularity, especially if Apple go the same way, you have to think developers will have no choice but to tag along. After all, plenty of them are already creating stuff for iOS and Android, so it's not going to be completely foreign to them, is it?

This is just a genuine concern that smaller developers simply may not have the resources to learn programming for ARM processors, and still offer support on Intel processor-based plug-ins.

Some may fall by the wayside but some small iOS and Android app developers will rise to take their places. It's just the natural cycle of things.