KVR Audio

liquidsound · Post by **liquidsound** » Sat Jun 18, 2022 3:52 pm

Posted in the other tread an interview by sonicstate

Trancit · Post by **Trancit** » Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:09 pm

koalaboy wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:43 am
vertibration wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:52 am Here we go......Every KVR member is the CEO, COO of a company, flies their own plane, codes their own multi million dollar plugins, performs Karate, and works for a secret government agency.......Bruh LMAO
Anyone who has worked in investory-owned companies of any size, especially in tech, will know that what has been said is accurate. It's a fact of life. We can hope that NI will be different, but remember that all investors are interested in is a 'Return on Investment' which is typically growth and profit above anything else.

You'd think that growth and profit require catering to users needs, but as can be seen by pretty much any big company (say, Apple, for example) it really doesn't matter once you get mass market. You just need to not annoy too many people all the time, whilst showing new 'shinies'.

People are correct in some ways though, that none of this matters - it's the developers that will drive CLAP, either independently or as part of larger companies. Within somewhere as big as NI, it could possibly happen as a grass-roots initiative, or it may need a concerted effort, but it's highly unlikely that anything customers say will make any difference.

(I have all sorts of things that I think are important from an engineering standpoint, but the company I work for is far more interested in what the million-dollar clients are asking for - guess who wins).

...

You are 100% right... this is what I hope has to change in future and is the reason why I try to avoid giving bigger companies any money at all...

As soon as they reach a certain level and at least when they are big enough to get bought by bigger investors every innovation, creativity and hope dies in that moment... from that moment on it´s just about the greed...
This is not about running a business but making the biggest profit possible at all costs, ripping off as many people as possible and the moment I am out...

As a customer you can only loose from this moment on... necessary changes get postponed more and more as they are not attractive enough to drive sales any higher and products/cooperations appear like soundwide...megasampler... selling shit for gold...

Some companies luckily avoided going that route, some people still kept their soul and young and hungry indie devs appear every day... these are often more worthy to support as long as they don´t show up any different...
There are so much great alternatives out there...why shall I beat a dead horse... and I hope more people would wake up, doing the same and get out of this sick and destroying system...

Trancit · Post by **Trancit** » Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:13 pm

liquidsound wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 3:52 pm Posted in the other tread an interview by sonicstate

@Urs you are living on Gran Canaria??
I am located in Play del Inglés!

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:27 pm

Trancit wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:13 pm
liquidsound wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 3:52 pm Posted in the other tread an interview by sonicstate

@Urs you are living on Gran Canaria??
I am located in Play del Inglés!

Hey, cool! My wife and I have a little condo up near Las Canteras in Las Palmas - we spend a considerable amount of time on workation

(center of life is in Berlin though...)

Trancit · Post by **Trancit** » Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:30 pm

Urs wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:27 pm
Trancit wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:13 pm
liquidsound wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 3:52 pm Posted in the other tread an interview by sonicstate

@Urs you are living on Gran Canaria??
I am located in Play del Inglés!
Hey, cool! My wife and I have a little condo up near Las Canteras in Las Palmas - we spend a considerable amount of time on workation

(center of life is in Berlin though...)

Netter Strand und nette Promenade!!

Aber das Wetter ist besser im Süden...

Hammy Havoc · Post by **Hammy Havoc** » Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:00 pm

Urs, hope you are well!

Just wondered if you had seen this: https://community.native-instruments.co ... ment_20904

If you've already responded regarding the MIT license elsewhere, would love to give it a read and put a link to the answer in a few other places online where it has been questioned. I would report the post on the NI forum, but alas NI recently banned me for criticism of their lack of development on Maschine and Komplete Kontrol, bugs, false advertising, and lack of a public roadmap. Calling third-parties a "scam" is seemingly acceptable though.

CLAP is shaping up to be a very sensible standard. Particularly liked the thoughtfulness of `check-for-update`. Sure beats running half a dozen plugin managers several times per day to check for plugin updates after an OS update (what a waste of time). It's the simple things, but it all adds up to a very nice whole. I hope to see it gather momentum in the coming months and years.

Keep up the excellent work. Would love to buy you and the team lunch in Berlin one of these days when I'm next there, and talk CLAP.

Working on a FOSS plugin that I hope to offer the first version of later this year.

Edit: Just saw that Mario responded. Hope you're good, ED.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:37 pm

Ah, a guy with the same handle has been trolling us on Youtube. Nevermind, his arguments are bogus.

GNXT · Post by **GNXT** » Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:42 pm

Urs wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:37 pm Ah, a guy with the same handle has been trolling us on Youtube. Nevermind, his arguments are bogus.

Stop lying, Bill Gates and Soros is behind CLAP, you are exposed

DRMR · Post by **DRMR** » Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:47 pm

Wow, what a horrible troll haha. Exactly 0 of their arguments hold any footing. The liberal licensing (no shady dual-licensed shenanigans) and open contribution are exactly what make community projects worthwhile.
Developers and people from industry coming together to collaborate, that's the value of open-source. Not one company dictating what the rest of the world can and cannot do.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:52 pm

Urs wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:37 pm Ah, a guy with the same handle has been trolling us on Youtube. Nevermind, his arguments are bogus.

gtk

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:53 pm

Yeah, I really don't get it. I only signed up to GitHub two days ago, I wouldn't have clue as to how to take down the repo, nor do I have the rights to do that.

I actually don't want any of what that guy is taking.

EnGee · Post by **EnGee** » Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:24 pm

So, can u-he/Bitwig/Alexandre close or change the license of this project whenever they want? Do they have such control over this project?
I understand that it is like "Midi". Some standard protocol or code, for all developers without one company to control it or benefit from it.

baconpaul · Post by **baconpaul** » Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:42 pm

EnGee wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:24 pm So, can u-he/Bitwig/Alexandre close or change the license of this project whenever they want?

The short answer to this is "no".

The code as it sits now is MIT code and you can get it and keep it MIT forever.

The longer answer is a bit longer. But this is a complicated topic and people form heated and incorrect opinions easily, so please do read carefully and respond politely!

The core of the answer is: Even if someone did make a copy of the code with a different license, that would be explicitly pointless.

First of all the prior copy would still be MIT licensed so the rest of us could ignore them.

Secondly, that would just be dumb. Why?

MIT means you can modify software and include it in closed source applications and not tell anyone. It is not "contagious" and can be included in closed source programs without peril.

This is precisely why almost every *standard* (as opposed to *product*) uses either MIT, ISC (sort of the european MIT), BSD or Apache 2 license. They allow you to make closed source "derivatives". But for standards that is critical - if Urs had to open source Diva to use CLAP he never would.

So again, this does mean that someone could take CLAP and make a copy with serious modifications and not release them. Tomorrow I could release surge with my own special secret CLAP which is totally different. But since CLAP is an interoperability standard that would be rather pointless. It wouldn't load in MultitrackStudio or QTractor or Bitwig. So my secret modification just wouldn't be fit for purpose.

Its sort of like you could change the ends on every hose in your garden secretly. But then you couldn't water your plants.

If you do a quick survey of open source licenses for standards in other industries, you find that they reach the same decision CLAP has. Namely you need to have a standard which isn't owned by a single market participant and is licensed so it can be accessed freely by all participants without encumbering their subsequent software. CLAP has made those choices.

MIT is also useful for libraries. For instance, the tuning library I wrote which provides the microtonal support in surge, dexed, odin2, bespoke, and more is MIT licensed so closed source programs can use it. And they do. I did that so that people could get accurate SCL/KBM -> Frequency. Because that's hard and I like instruments to have that.

This stance - or being a standard - is also having technical consequences on how the CLAP team works. On launch day, Alex changed the free-audio repo so that he can't merge without review by a few reviewers (there's some GitHub mechanics here which I will leave out). Full disclosure: I am an open source dev and I *am* one of the reviewers. But I'm not a u-he or bitwig employee.

There *are* other sorts of licenses, the most famous of which is GPL3. GPL3 says (roughly) that a derived work (which in this case would be a plugin that uses CLAP) has to also be open source. That is a very useful way to make something open source if you don't want it included in a closed source product. For instance, if you wrote an amazing filter and you didn't want it in diva, you could licenses it GPL3 and diva couldn't use it without being open source. That's kinda nice for "product" like things but really terrible for "standards" type things, as I'm sure you can imagine.

Finally, we designed clap so that you can make proprietary extensions. That's in the API. They are namespaces, segregated, etc... If someone wants to make one which is closed source only, they can. A clap has a mechanism to address it. It can compete in the marketplace of ideas. We shall see. But every single core feature you have seen from CLAP has all been open source.

I haven't really read the comments by the troll guy. I'm fast with a block button so I can get back to coding stuff to help people make music. But the idea that MIT would let you make a closed souce product based on top of a library is precisely what you want in a standard for interoperable software. The idea that you could make your own incompatible copy of the standard is true. but then you wouldn't implement the standard and couldn't interoperate.

Hope that helps!

baconpaul · Post by **baconpaul** » Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:43 pm

<deleted kvr is hard to use

>

baconpaul · Post by **baconpaul** » Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:43 pm

CLAP: The New Audio Plug-in Standard (by U-he, Bitwig and others)