CLAP: The New Audio Plug-in Standard (by U-he, Bitwig and others)

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jamcat wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:50 pm Why would any CEO tell his marketing teams to talk inside baseball or air company dirty laundry to customers? That would be a super bad CEO. 99% of customers don't know and don't care about this stuff. They just want VST3 and M1 versions, not more distractions.
Because they're now owned by investors, they have to be seen to be making certain statements, even if it's not true of right now, or they're in transition. Cattini might believe what he's saying, but he didn't write it, or say it, which was my point.

And of course they wouldn't be super open - there's a benefit to transparency, but also a curse, which has hurt NI in the past. They're rightly cautious, but I think this statement is a stretch too far, because, because it has no basis in their recent interactions with the community. His quote was specifically about listening to customers, and as customers, we have a right to question, and with all the best will in the world, their customers have been asking for VST3 and M1 for a very long time, and they aren't delivering in anywhere near an acceptable timline.

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CLAP is not for users primarily to decide, but for developers! If this would work fine and make their lives easier, then why not?!

Developer's trust is more important than users' trust here. Personally, I'm curious to hear developers' opinions more than users' as this touch them directly more than us.
Using: Cubase Pro 15, Reason 13, Tascam US-4x4HR, MODX6, DM12D, LaunchKey 49, Yamaha guitar(Pacifica 612v) and bass (BB234) and some virtual instruments and synths.

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Vagusuk wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:00 pm
jamcat wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:50 pm Why would any CEO tell his marketing teams to talk inside baseball or air company dirty laundry to customers? That would be a super bad CEO. 99% of customers don't know and don't care about this stuff. They just want VST3 and M1 versions, not more distractions.
Because they're now owned by investors, they have to be seen to be making certain statements, even if it's not true of right now, or they're in transition. Cattini might believe what he's saying, but he didn't write it, or say it, which was my point.

And of course they wouldn't be super open - there's a benefit to transparency, but also a curse, which has hurt NI in the past. They're rightly cautious, but I think this statement is a stretch too far, because, because it has no basis in their recent interactions with the community. His quote was specifically about listening to customers, and as customers, we have a right to question, and with all the best will in the world, their customers have been asking for VST3 and M1 for a very long time, and they aren't delivering in anywhere near an acceptable timline.
I just think you may be more focused on CLAP than the average NI user. They want to hear about VST3 and M1, not CLAP, right now.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP

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jamcat wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:50 pm 99% of customers don't know and don't care about this stuff. They just want VST3 and M1 versions, not more distractions.
Surely the majority of their customers are on Windows 7 and have a display size of 1366 by 768.
I hate signatures too.

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Vagusuk wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:56 pm I do have 20 years knowledge of marketing, and what he's saying there does not tie in with their actions. You're welcome to DM me for my linkedin (and thanks for the warm welcome Jamcat and Vetibration).

I'm currently the COO of a US PR agency, the COO of a data and outreach platform in the videogames industry, and the founder and trustee of a mental health charity.

As per your mention of me having no clue about the inner workings of NI or any insider knowledge - that's Mario, and he's incredibly helpful externally and on the NI forums.

Nice to see such a welcoming community. Shall we get back on topic - which is CLAP.
Here we go......Every KVR member is the CEO, COO of a company, flies their own plane, codes their own multi million dollar plugins, performs Karate, and works for a secret government agency.......Bruh LMAO

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Imagine Reason implementing it…. By 2025 maybe? If ever
MacMini M2 Pro MacOS Tahoe ……… Reason 14

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vertibration wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:52 am Here we go......Every KVR member is the CEO, COO of a company, flies their own plane, codes their own multi million dollar plugins, performs Karate, and works for a secret government agency.......Bruh LMAO
Anyone who has worked in investory-owned companies of any size, especially in tech, will know that what has been said is accurate. It's a fact of life. We can hope that NI will be different, but remember that all investors are interested in is a 'Return on Investment' which is typically growth and profit above anything else.

You'd think that growth and profit require catering to users needs, but as can be seen by pretty much any big company (say, Apple, for example) it really doesn't matter once you get mass market. You just need to not annoy too many people all the time, whilst showing new 'shinies'.

People are correct in some ways though, that none of this matters - it's the developers that will drive CLAP, either independently or as part of larger companies. Within somewhere as big as NI, it could possibly happen as a grass-roots initiative, or it may need a concerted effort, but it's highly unlikely that anything customers say will make any difference.

(I have all sorts of things that I think are important from an engineering standpoint, but the company I work for is far more interested in what the million-dollar clients are asking for - guess who wins).

If a good amount of plugin developers and also a couple more DAW developers take on CLAP, fully appreciating the benefits it brings and the opportunities it affords going forward, the rest will just happen. NI (or others) may be slow to adopt as they have in many other areas, but it won't reduce the value of CLAP in any way whatsoever.

I have just pulled the saw demo by baconpaul :clap: , onto Windows, built it using the few lines provided, and have a great CLAP plugin running to use as an example. It took about 15 minutes. That's already so much easier than VST. I'm sure it's more work for existing plugins to convert, but from everything I'm reading, any plugin devs who know what they are doing can likely convert (at least in basic functionality) pretty quickly as well (in fact here's another example).
Last edited by koalaboy on Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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sQeetz wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:19 am Imagine Reason implementing it…. By 2025 maybe? If ever
The folks at Reason could really benefit from the extensions mechanism within their ecosystem. The flexibility of CLAP seems to play right into what made Reason unique in the first place, and whilst I'm sure they're limited on resources, as a dev and a user, this seems a much more interesting direction for them than existing VSTs.

Equally, I can understand that they're deep in effort to support VST3 and M1, so perhaps they want to take some time after that to, you know, work on new Reason things :D

I would love to see Reason become stronger. I use the VST plugin and appreciate the flexibility they offer both inside of the rack and with external equipment/DAWs. Maybe a Rack CLAP could be in the future :wink: :pray:

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This koalaboy person... it's like they know what they're talking about. :)


(You're spot on on all accounts.)

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koalaboy wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:43 am I have just pulled the saw demo by baconpaul :clap: , onto Windows, built it using the few lines provided, and have a great CLAP plugin running to use as an example. It took about 15 minutes. That's already so much easier than VST. I'm sure it's more work for existing plugins to convert, but from everything I'm reading, any plugin devs who know what they are doing can likely convert (at least in basic functionality) pretty quickly as well (in fact here's another example).
And this one:


Image


Shared with me on the same day Dave joined the CLAP team and started integrating into his codebase.

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IF Reason had it, and that's a big IF, and Apple would for some obscure reason say that AU isn't it, let's support CLAP...... well, then... I don't really see it happening.
I'd like to be proven wrong, seriously, but I believe you guys are being way too optimistic about this whole endeavour ....
MacMini M2 Pro MacOS Tahoe ……… Reason 14

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As if Reason is a super huge and important player. It's dwindled throughout the years, its userbase is nowhere near as large as, say, Live or FL Studio.

That's not to say they wouldn't be able to benefit from CLAP integration.

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EvilDragon wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:43 pmThat's not to say they wouldn't be able to benefit from CLAP integration.
I'm not saying that they wouldn't. It's great on paper.
But if an installer of a plugin asks you what formats you would like to have installed, I'm sure CLAP would maybe just be left on out of ignorance. If not be unchecked because -not needed-.
You and I know about the benefits but the majority of the people don't
MacMini M2 Pro MacOS Tahoe ……… Reason 14

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sQeetz wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:48 pm You and I know about the benefits but the majority of the people don't
This is where the growth will happen. As more users show what they're doing with CLAP on youtube and social media, as new idea grow and experimentation shows outcomes that people haven't seen before, demand will increase.

As mentioned previously, this is the 'beginning'. There's already a lot of talk on the forums, and as more plugins arrive, more DAWs add support and users take advantage of the benefits, there will be organic growth. It's been about 3-4 days so far ? That's nothing.

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