Tone2 will release Icarus - 3D WaveTable Synthesizer

[chk071]

Yes. Like Dune 2. But are those wavetable synths, just because they can do wavetable? In comparison to Largo e.g., where the main purpose should be wavetable, i'd say both are rather general purpose, or primarily VA synths. Anyway.

[recursive one]

I guess synths which have more that one synthesis mode (VA, wavetable, FM) may be referred to as "hybrid"

[EnGee]

Yes. Like Dune 2. But are those wavetable synths, just because they can do wavetable?

Yes

[Neon Breath]

Can someone comfortable with Icarus explain me how granular synthesis works in it?

I tried the demo and particularly the granular mode and even if I’m very used to granular synthesis I don’t understand how it works in Icarus. I didn’t find any classic parameters to control the grains, like density, the length of the grains, position / scrub, etc. Are these granular parameters hidden somewhere once you have loaded a sample in granular mode?

[chk071]

I guess synths which have more that one synthesis mode (VA, wavetable, FM) may be referred to as "hybrid"

I guess about any synth which comes out nowadays has to be referred to as hybrid then. About any synth comes with basic FM features, sample based oscillators, cross modulation, phase modulation, whatever.

[Ingonator]

I guess synths which have more that one synthesis mode (VA, wavetable, FM) may be referred to as "hybrid"

In the past a "hybrid" synth was a synth with digital oscillators and a real analog filter like the PPG Wave 2.2/2.3, Prophet VS, E-Mu Emulator I to III, Korg DW-8000, Korg
DSS-1, Ensoniq ESQ-1/SQ-80, Waldorf Microwave 1, Waldorf Wave, Modal 001 + 002 and others.

By your definition Largo would no be a pure wavetable synth too, same about the Q, MicroQ or Blofeld hardware, as those besides the wavetables also got "typical" VA features including classical analog like waveforms with analog style variable Pulse and PWM while in some "pure" wavetable synths like e.g. PPG Wave 2. Microwave 1 or Icarus you need a wavetable to do PWM. For that pupose i had just created the PWM wavetables for Icarus based on the PWM in my real analog Bass Station II (both "constructed based on a few waveforms and crossfading and by Resynthesis from a PW "sweep" with the Mod envelope in teh BS II).

[recursive one]

I guess synths which have more that one synthesis mode (VA, wavetable, FM) may be referred to as "hybrid"

I guess about any synth which comes out nowadays has to be referred to as hybrid then. About any synth comes with basic FM features, sample based oscillators, cross modulation, phase modulation, whatever.

Yes, perhaps

As for Dune2, its VA section is very basic, only few waveforms and no actual analogue modelling. I think they could just add a vawetable containing these waveforms to the same effect without making a dedicated VA engine.

Btw, I mostly use the FM section from Dune2, so Dune is an FM synth for me

[Ingonator]

Largo and Blofeld also got dedicated Sine waveforms and you could use the 3 main Oscs as FM sources for all 3 Oscs so you could do some simple 3 OP FM synthesis (including feedback as you could modulate an Osc with itself).

Also with Icarus you have the option to use a virtual FM modulator for each of the 3 main Oscs so you could do a kind of 6 OP FM syntheis while teh OPs are not freely routable (so maybe it is betetr called "3 x 2 OP FM synthesis). FWIW the FM in Icarus works like in Nemsis so it is REAL FM and no phase modulation.
If you first render the FM to a new wavetable (wit h"Apply Morph to Wavetable" and then do again FM with the result you could get some quite complex FM, not to mention that you could combine the FM with wavetablöe scanning.
If you combine modulation of the wavetable index with modulation of the FM amount (= Morph knob at the FM Morph modes) you get what in Icarus is called a "3D wavetable" (i know that FM is laso included with some other wavetable synths so maybe it is not the best example for that "3D" term...).

The Morph modes (and more) are also available in the wavetable and waveform editor so you could also use those to edit single waveforms or a selection of waveforms in the table.

[David]

Can someone comfortable with Icarus explain me how granular synthesis works in it?

I tried the demo and particularly the granular mode and even if I’m very used to granular synthesis I don’t understand how it works in Icarus. I didn’t find any classic parameters to control the grains, like density, the length of the grains, position / scrub, etc. Are these granular parameters hidden somewhere once you have loaded a sample in granular mode?

Ditto; a video about this aspect would be great… So far, all those I've seen since the release have been amazingly impressive.

No matter what terminology anybody, including the developer, chooses to describe this thing, it's clearly a monster sound tool, able to gobble up any recordable sound and serve it back in an virtually infinite variety of flavors, elegantly displayed; yum!

[pdxindy]

Yes. Like Dune 2. But are those wavetable synths, just because they can do wavetable? In comparison to Largo e.g., where the main purpose should be wavetable, i'd say both are rather general purpose, or primarily VA synths. Anyway.

Zebra can do quite a bit of FM synthesis, but would not generally be called an FM synth.

Likewise, Zebra can do wavetable synthesis, but would not really be called a wavetable synth either.

Serum and Icarus are primarily wavetable synths which have more in depth implementations than more general synths which have wavetable capability. Same as Zebra, I wouldn't call Dune 2 a wavetable synth.

Of course such labels have grey area and nuance, but that is how it makes sense to me.

[exmatproton]

Yes. Like Dune 2. But are those wavetable synths, just because they can do wavetable? In comparison to Largo e.g., where the main purpose should be wavetable, i'd say both are rather general purpose, or primarily VA synths. Anyway.

Zebra can do quite a bit of FM synthesis, but would not generally be called an FM synth.

Likewise, Zebra can do wavetable synthesis, but would not really be called a wavetable synth either.

Serum and Icarus are primarily wavetable synths which have more in depth implementations than more general synths which have wavetable capability. Same as Zebra, I wouldn't call Dune 2 a wavetable synth.

Of course such labels have grey area and nuance, but that is how it makes sense to me.

Isn't zebra(2) mostly a wavetable synth? I mean, the main osc structure is based on wavetables. Sure, it can do more, but most of the osc tools and in depth tweakability is wavetable based (and very good implemented imho).

[bojanboyss]

Can someone comfortable with Icarus explain me how granular synthesis works in it?

I tried the demo and particularly the granular mode and even if I’m very used to granular synthesis I don’t understand how it works in Icarus. I didn’t find any classic parameters to control the grains, like density, the length of the grains, position / scrub, etc. Are these granular parameters hidden somewhere once you have loaded a sample in granular mode?

Not that Im "comfortable" (Im new to it) but here is from manual (bottom page 15):
Easy create patch: Granulator- Creates a patch which uses granular synthesis.
In granular synthesis a sample is divided into small 'grains' with a window function.
Use the OCT knob to control the density of the grains. Use the MORPH knob the
change the pitch of the grains. Change the Lfo1 SHAPE to a triangle for a forward
and backward playback. Change Lfo1 SPEED for a faster or slower playback of the
sound. When you set SPEED to 0 you can timefreeze the sample. You can use the
WAVE knob to move within the sound.

Seems they are hidden in plain sight

[David]

Seems they are hidden in plain sight

…i.e., buried inside the manual and neither visible and nor particularly intuitive in the gui.
One hopes that an update will see controls that change function like this also change labels.

Still, the sounds thus available are very cool:)

[Neon Breath]

Can someone comfortable with Icarus explain me how granular synthesis works in it?

I tried the demo and particularly the granular mode and even if I’m very used to granular synthesis I don’t understand how it works in Icarus. I didn’t find any classic parameters to control the grains, like density, the length of the grains, position / scrub, etc. Are these granular parameters hidden somewhere once you have loaded a sample in granular mode?

Not that Im "comfortable" (Im new to it) but here is from manual (bottom page 15):
Easy create patch: Granulator- Creates a patch which uses granular synthesis.
In granular synthesis a sample is divided into small 'grains' with a window function.
Use the OCT knob to control the density of the grains. Use the MORPH knob the
change the pitch of the grains. Change the Lfo1 SHAPE to a triangle for a forward
and backward playback. Change Lfo1 SPEED for a faster or slower playback of the
sound. When you set SPEED to 0 you can timefreeze the sample. You can use the
WAVE knob to move within the sound.

Seems they are hidden in plain sight

Thanks for this. Not very intuitive, I was looking for the classic granular parameters...

[Ingonator]

Serum has an exquisite wavetable editor and it actually has 2 filters, the 2nd one is located in the FX section (and is not polyphonic/per voice).

Well, first that second filter in Serum is found in the FX section, not at the main GUI like in Icarus.
Second opposing to Icarus this does not allow parallel routing or routing of single Oscs to the second filter (like tha A/B switches in the main filter).
BTW both Serum filters do not have a dedicated adjustable key tracking paramater (besides On/Off). You have to do a workaround to add adjustable filter keytracking (e.g. route Note# to the Cutoff).
In Icarus you also got 2 dedciated Velocity knobs (for Cutoff + envelope amount) and a LFO3 knob that routes LFO3 to the Cutoff (without the need to use a mod matrix slot for this).
The Serum filters do not have a dedicated knob for filter envelope amount, you fisrt have toassign an envelope to the Cutoff. Not a big problem but IMO a design flaw.

Besides teh 2 main filters Icarus also offers additional filters in the Morph mode (where teh Morph knob corresponds to the Cutoff). If you modulate the Morph knob you got an option to modulate the Cutoff. You could also render the filtered wavetable (wit hteh Morph mode) to a new wavetable using the "Apply Morph to Wavetable" feature.

Maybe flakes2 should have said Serum does not have 2 full featured filters, opposing to Icarus...
On the other hand it is also easy to miss that second filter when it is "hidden" the FX section.


Of course the comment that Serum does not have a proper wavetable editor was wrong.


PS:
If something i just mentioned was changed with later Serum updates i could not have really noticed it yet as the demo at the official Xfer website is still from 2014 and i do not want to get the new Splice based demo.