NI is now part of Soundwide with plugin alliance etc! Lots of free stuff...

[0degree]

Yet again - name a company - apart from Adobe - that started out as no subs, then optional subs, then subs only. Not saying it can never happen, but KVR does seem permanently paranoid about something that, among VI devs to date, has never, ever happened.

Fair point, but 10 years ago there were no subs and now a lot of the companies are pushing in that direction which IMO is not a good sign.

[gaggle of hermits]

Yet again - name a company - apart from Adobe - that started out as no subs, then optional subs, then subs only.

avid.

yes, technically, you can buy perpetual licences but the system is so skewed towards subscription that you need to have done some serious homework to check that the perpetual model is workable. in order to maintain access to updates you need to make sure you never stop buying the one-year update package every year or else you face having to pay through the nose to buy back in...or take out a subscription.

or buy something else.

[0degree]

see what you mean about it becoming a monopoly/maybe subscription, but they cant make what we already own subscription, and none of these are high end in terms of sound quality, theres better sounding stuff than these companies, so dont think they could do that, id just get better sounding non sub stuff elsewhere

Well, they can just release new products as subscription only and don't update existing ones. There will be still smaller devs unless the whole industry decides to go that route then we're kinda screwed.

thats what i was getting at about only new products being sub only, does anyone actually know they plan to do this or just speculation? and its not just these 3 devs or small devs, lots of other big ones

It's pure speculation - I'm fine with subs as long as there's an option for normal purchases. But I can also imagine artificial inflation of perpetual licenses' price just to "convince" people to move to subs (see PA)

[DrGonzo]

Yet again - name a company - apart from Adobe - that started out as no subs, then optional subs, then subs only. Not saying it can never happen, but KVR does seem permanently paranoid about something that, among VI devs to date, has never, ever happened.

Heh. I can actually name one that is doing exactly this, preparing to walk exactly the Adobe route. But it's a small company (Softorino) that deals with small utilities. Had a chat with the support and they said they are moving away from individual sales and focus only on the subscription of apps.

But yeah - keep things real. None of this have happened in the audio world.

[SLiC]

May be hard selling subs when so many people already own perpetual licences to so many NI (and iZotope) products from past sales. Everything I wanted from PA I also already have (from past giveaways and sales). That said, I have no issue with subs as an 'option' as many have said, as long as perpetual licence owners don't become the poor cousin. My main concern is that these companies actually survive and have a viable business model. I can't say I am full of confidence that these changes with help them, seems like a downward spiral in a saturated market to me.

[ghettosynth]

May be hard selling subs when so many people already own perpetual licences to so many NI (and iZotope) products from past sales. Everything I wanted from PA I also already have (from past giveaways and sales). That said, I have no issue with subs as an 'option' as many have said, as long as perpetual licence owners don't become the poor cousin.

Yes, and to be clear I hate subscriptions and will most likely never buy one for hobby tools, but, we are not the target market. Young people with no money to spend are who they want to lock in to their new models. You see people on here all the time who have nothing and that sing the praises of rent to own and even subscription models.

Those buyers put the sense of relief that they can use "pro" tools, which they believe will make them "competitive" over other concerns.

It's definitely not for me. My sense of what this trend would do has actually come to fruition. It's not just subscriptions, it's acquisitions as well that has soured me on buying much of anything.

The realization that I may not be able to use some plugin in the future triggers a false need to future proof. It's just psychology, it's not rational, but it happens. We are all subject to buyer psychology to some degree.

That some plugins are here, then gone, makes me realize that I didn't really need them at all. I have a couple of plugins from the recent meta acquisition that were virtually free, $1 I think, but that I've never used in a project. This triggers the question of what do I need and, TBH, I really don't "need" anything else ever.

My main concern is that these companies actually survive and have a viable business model. I can't say I am full of confidence that these changes with help them, seems like a downward spiral in a saturated market to me.

Yeah, and once bitten, twice shy and all that. Adobe has become really aggressive. If you pay for an annual subscription and then fail to cancel before the 14 day mark, you will pay 50% of the remaining time as a cancellation fee. This happened to someone in my family recently when they quickly subscribed for a work need but forgot to cancel before the 14 day mark. Sure, it was their fault, that's not the point, they have sworn off Adobe forever, even uninstalling the free tools.

This event changed their behavior. On another similar need they were far more cautious, chose the monthly, then canceled. You can do that now, but I remind you of phone contracts, and internet contracts are still a thing. Locking you in for one or two years may become necessary when the cost to acquire you is more than your lifetime value without that lock-in.

This is your future. Sure, it's easy to subscribe and then cancel now, because you are the frog in the warming water and they don't want you jumping out until you need them. As you become more locked in, the noose can be tightened and you won't be able to escape so easily. You will agree to a better price to pay annually, and unbelievably good price for the year. You will come to KVR and gloat about your good fortune, but then you'll forget and pay the full price the next year. Hopefully you won't need that money because if you realize your mistake they're going to keep half or more to give you anything back.

I pay for one software subscription at the moment, it's for my work, and I get a special price so it costs me $10/year. This bugs me to no end and I'm actively adopting open source solutions to the workflow so that I can ditch this tool. Still, as much as I'm aware, I have already forgotten when the thing renews and if they raised the price, I might not even realize it for a year or two. I hate subscriptions, imagine you don't, you'll have a dozen of these, or more. It could easily get out of control.

[j wazza]

Yes, and to be clear I hate subscriptions and will most likely never buy one for hobby tools, but, we are not the target market. Young people with no money to spend are who they want to lock in to their new models. You see people on here all the time who have nothing and that sing the praises of rent to own and even subscription models.

rent to own is completely different, i sometimes do that, you dont need to pay forever, youre still buying it but over a longer time for slightly more money, thats a great option to have
i hate subs though, but have no prob with rent to own or things like splice where u get to keep the samples forever

[ghettosynth]

Yes, and to be clear I hate subscriptions and will most likely never buy one for hobby tools, but, we are not the target market. Young people with no money to spend are who they want to lock in to their new models. You see people on here all the time who have nothing and that sing the praises of rent to own and even subscription models.

rent to own is completely different, i sometimes do that, you dont need to pay forever, youre still buying it but over a longer time for slightly more money, thats a great option to have
i hate subs though, but have no prob with rent to own or things like splice where u get to keep the samples forever

I get that, that's not my point. The point is that they target similar consumer profiles. Rent to own of licensed digital products is basically risk free consumer credit.

Note that without the "risk free" part you could not have the zero interest. Rent to own has existed for a long time in other markets, e.g., appliances. They don't build those stores on Madison ave. They're on the other side of the tracks.

I would never use rent to own. The minor interest that I could earn on the unspent income wouldn't be worth more than the hassle of the thing. At my age I can't imagine that I ever chose to live paycheck to paycheck, but there we were, young and broke with a seemingly infinite desire for useless stuff.

In other words, if you "need" rent to own, then you'll be happier in your old age to just not buy the thing at all. If you're doing it because you're just using other people's money and you don't mind any potential hassle, then that's different.

[j wazza]

I would never use rent to own. The minor interest that I could earn on the unspent income wouldn't be worth more than the hassle of the thing. At my age I can't imagine that I ever chose to live paycheck to paycheck, but there we were, young and broke with a seemingly infinite desire for useless stuff.

In other words, if you "need" rent to own, then you'll be happier in your old age to just not buy the thing at all. If you're doing it because you're just using other people's money and you don't mind any potential hassle, then that's different.

the other advantage is you can use something for longer than the trial/without restrictions and if you dont use it much or decide you dont need it you dont need to buy the whole thing, id say its 0 hassle though, unless its through splice as it can be annoying to have to open up the splice app to use the plugin

[noiseboyuk]

Yet again - name a company - apart from Adobe - that started out as no subs, then optional subs, then subs only. Not saying it can never happen, but KVR does seem permanently paranoid about something that, among VI devs to date, has never, ever happened.

Heh. I can actually name one that is doing exactly this, preparing to walk exactly the Adobe route. But it's a small company (Softorino) that deals with small utilities. Had a chat with the support and they said they are moving away from individual sales and focus only on the subscription of apps.

But yeah - keep things real. None of this have happened in the audio world.

Well done! I've never heard of them, but we do have one name now. I, um, wish them luck.

To the other poster - yes, Avid is a PITA but I do have permanent licenses from them, and they are still being sold.

[ghettosynth]

the other advantage is you can use something for longer than the trial/without restrictions and if you dont use it much or decide you dont need it you dont need to buy the whole thing

So an overpriced subscription model then.

, id say its 0 hassle though, unless its through splice as it can be annoying to have to open up the splice app to use the plugin

Whether or not it's a hassle is personal. I see no value to it for me and view having to identify odd charges on my card as more hassle than just buying something outright. Moreover, you now have k for k > 1 opportunities for a mistake. The first time something like that happens, you'll start to understand what I mean about hassle.

Again, this all smacks of justification to consume. Do your thing but don't tell me that this kind of consumption is necessary, it isn't.

[j wazza]

the other advantage is you can use something for longer than the trial/without restrictions and if you dont use it much or decide you dont need it you dont need to buy the whole thing

So an overpriced subscription model then.

, id say its 0 hassle though, unless its through splice as it can be annoying to have to open up the splice app to use the plugin

Whether or not it's a hassle is personal. I see no value to it for me and view having to identify odd charges on my card as more hassle than just buying something outright. Moreover, you now have k for k > 1 opportunities for a mistake. The first time something like that happens, you'll start to understand what I mean about hassle.

Again, this all smacks of justification to consume. Do your thing but don't tell me that this kind of consumption is necessary, it isn't.

well its not that overpriced, you end up paying like 10 or 20 quid more than the normal price

i never told you its necessary, when did i say that? youre imagining that

do what you want im not trying to convince you to do rent to own, i dont care, im saying these are the reasons i and others sometimes do them, i havent done one for years, like you said its mostly for when youre young and dont have much money

of course it smacks of justification, im literally justifying the reasons for some people doing it, and yes hassle is personal, you have your reasons for not doing it, others have their reasons for doing it, each to their own

[ghettosynth]

Yet again - name a company - apart from Adobe - that started out as no subs, then optional subs, then subs only. Not saying it can never happen, but KVR does seem permanently paranoid about something that, among VI devs to date, has never, ever happened.

Heh. I can actually name one that is doing exactly this, preparing to walk exactly the Adobe route. But it's a small company (Softorino) that deals with small utilities. Had a chat with the support and they said they are moving away from individual sales and focus only on the subscription of apps.

But yeah - keep things real. None of this have happened in the audio world.

Well done! I've never heard of them, but we do have one name now. I, um, wish them luck.

To the other poster - yes, Avid is a PITA but I do have permanent licenses from them, and they are still being sold.

SketchUp, took less than a minute to find.

https://www.solidsmack.com/cad/its-happ ... scription/

If you can't see it then you've got your head in the sand. The model is clear, the goal is to eventually not sell new perpetual licenses. Promises of an option to keep perpetual licenses are made to keep you engaged. They will remain only as long as it benefits the company to do so.

So, as soon as firm X announces a subscription, I start looking for replacements so that I'm not dependent on them.

[ghettosynth]

well its not that overpriced, you end up paying like 10 or 20 quid more than the normal price

If you're paying more than a subscription but getting only the features of a subscription then that is the definition of overpriced.

do what you want im not trying to convince you to do rent to own, i dont care,

I'm not just talking to you, this is a conversation in a forum. I am trying to convince people not to use rent to own and/or subscription models, I think that it is a problem just like excessive consumer credit is a problem.

[noiseboyuk]

SketchUp, took less than a minute to find.

https://www.solidsmack.com/cad/its-happ ... scription/

If you can't see it then you've got your head in the sand. The model is clear, the goal is to eventually not sell new perpetual licenses. Promises of an option to keep perpetual licenses are made to keep you engaged. They will remain only as long as it benefits the company to do so.

So, as soon as firm X announces a subscription, I start looking for replacements so that I'm not dependent on them.

Another example that isn't an audio developer.

Adobe made the jump a decade ago. Since then, we've heard of precisely ONE developer that has followed, and almost nobody has heard of them.

I'm not arguing that there isn't a wider trend. Scores of developers have launched subscription packages. But - crucially - none of them have (yet) made it mandatory, and that's significant.

The hysteria at KVR on this issue is pretty ludicrous. Every month another thread says the sky is falling in, that people must immediately ditch whoever has just launched a sub service. I never care, and all my stuff keeps working just fine.

Of course it might happen tomorrow. From anyone, whether or not they have a current optional subs plan. Until that day, I'll buy from anyone whose products I like at a good price. But y'all carry on with the screamin' and hollerin'.