Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[xbitz]

Actually, now that I think about it, it's totally unfair, and it both crushes and exalts the BWS developers at the same time, to compare a 10-year-old product with a 22-year-old one, after 10 years Live was at version 8 ...

[Trancit]

Actually, now that I think about it, it's totally unfair, and it both crushes and exalts the BWS developers at the same time, to compare a 10-year-old product with a 22-year-old one, after 10 years Live was at version 8 ...

Not necessarily a disadvantage...

Yes, because of the time difference Live is more complete on the DAW side but it´s much easier to analyze, backwards engineer and then copy ideas others already have in place than coming up with these innovations yourself...
It´s shown in Bitwig (not only Bitwig though even if it´s a bit extreme there) all of the time... but i.e. it´s clear from whom the new ideas of Live 12´s new PR features are coming from as well...
Everyone rummages around in the neighbour's garden and plunders what they can...
Of course, the youngest member is predestined to plunder the most, as others have already demonstrated so much that is worthwhile and has proven to be useful in everyday life.

And of course, and that´s the advantage of any DAW implementing ideas/being inspired from others,...you can analyze what the "originals" might have overlooked or even have done wrong with their implementations and you can fix these mistakes and add your own ideas on top of an already great concept...

[liquidsound]

Actually, now that I think about it, it's totally unfair, and it both crushes and exalts the BWS developers at the same time, to compare a 10-year-old product with a 22-year-old one, after 10 years Live was at version 8 ...

Nonsense. BWS started with the previous employer blueprint…
Are you kidding? Ten years old on someone else shoulders?

[SLiC]

Actually, now that I think about it, it's totally unfair, and it both crushes and exalts the BWS developers at the same time, to compare a 10-year-old product with a 22-year-old one, after 10 years Live was at version 8 ...

Nonsense. BWS started with the previous employer blueprint…
Are you kidding? Ten years old on someone else shoulders?
The freaking DAW is a clone and the so called improvements are the 10 years added to the original blueprint more or less.
Modify and improve (?) it’s incredibly easier than coming out with the real original one.
That was not really copying but close to stealing. I’m just wondering how nice the people at Ableton are to let those kids have it the way they did.

Imagen the outcry if Behringer had done it

The original Bitwig was very much a copy of Live with just a few differences, but by V5 it is quite different now (other than clips which have been copied by many DAWS now and the 'racks' concept- but that is different now with the Unified Modulation System)

Studio One did a similar thing to Cubase (some of the Steinberg developers left and took the DAW in the direction they wanted to go in) so these things aren't new...

[xbitz]

from AL?

Modulation System: Bitwig's flexible modulation system, which allows for complex routing of modulation sources and destinations, draws inspiration from Max/MSP and Ableton Live's 'Macros' feature.

Arranger View: Bitwig's Arranger View, with its ability to create and edit complex song structures with clips, stems, and groups, is reminiscent of Ableton Live's arrangement workflow.

Scenes and Clips: Bitwig's Scenes and Clips feature, which enables the creation of song sections and quick switching between them, resembles Ableton Live's Clip Launcher and arrangement management.

Scalable Vector-Based GUI: Bitwig's scalable vector-based GUI, which adapts to different screen sizes and resolutions, is borrowed from Logic Pro X's user interface design.

Advanced Drum Editing: Bitwig's advanced drum editing capabilities, including step sequencing, groove editing, and randomization tools, are influenced by FL Studio's drum programming features.

Voice Stacking: Bitwig's unique voice stacking feature, which allows for layering and manipulating multiple instances of the same instrument, is inspired by Kontakt's multi-layer instruments and Massive's paraphonic capabilities.

Polyphonic Aftertouch: Bitwig's support for polyphonic aftertouch, which allows for simultaneous modulation of multiple parameters based on pressure applied to a MIDI keyboard, is taken from Native Instruments' Reaktor and Reason's modular instruments.

External Device Integration: Bitwig's seamless integration with external hardware synthesizers and MIDI devices is influenced by Cubase's external MIDI routing and hardware control options.

Note Editor: Bitwig's note editor, with its ability to edit and manipulate notes in real-time, resembles FL Studio's piano roll editing style.

Audio Effects: Bitwig incorporates audio effects inspired by various DAWs, including Ableton Live's Delay, Logic Pro X's EQ, and FL Studio's Fruity Parametric EQ 2.

In conclusion, Bitwig has skillfully combined features from various DAWs to create a unique and powerful music production environment. Its ability to adapt and incorporate innovative functionalities has earned it a loyal following among musicians and producers.

- google bard

+ design comes from

Képernyőfotó 2023-12-16 - 20.42.04.png

Cakewalk http://project5.technetos.com/ (which also can be found in the "Lets Discuss: The Complete History of Reason Clones" topic viewtopic.php?t=491904 )

ps. and what nonsense, written in C++, Java[wiki] they didn't even come up with those

[liquidsound]

Actually, now that I think about it, it's totally unfair, and it both crushes and exalts the BWS developers at the same time, to compare a 10-year-old product with a 22-year-old one, after 10 years Live was at version 8 ...

Nonsense. BWS started with the previous employer blueprint…
Are you kidding? Ten years old on someone else shoulders?
The freaking DAW is a clone and the so called improvements are the 10 years added to the original blueprint more or less.
Modify and improve (?) it’s incredibly easier than coming out with the real original one.
That was not really copying but close to stealing. I’m just wondering how nice the people at Ableton are to let those kids have it the way they did.

Imagen the outcry if Behringer had done it

The original Bitwig was very much a copy of Live with just a few differences, but by V5 it is quite different now (other than clips which have been copied by many DAWS now and the 'racks' concept- but that is different now with the Unified Modulation System)

Studio One did a similar thing to Cubase (some of the Steinberg developers left and took the DAW in the direction they wanted to go in) so these things aren't new...

sure v5…

Behringer

[liquidsound]

from AL?

Modulation System: Bitwig's flexible modulation system, which allows for complex routing of modulation sources and destinations, draws inspiration from Max/MSP and Ableton Live's 'Macros' feature.

Arranger View: Bitwig's Arranger View, with its ability to create and edit complex song structures with clips, stems, and groups, is reminiscent of Ableton Live's arrangement workflow.

Scenes and Clips: Bitwig's Scenes and Clips feature, which enables the creation of song sections and quick switching between them, resembles Ableton Live's Clip Launcher and arrangement management.

Scalable Vector-Based GUI: Bitwig's scalable vector-based GUI, which adapts to different screen sizes and resolutions, is borrowed from Logic Pro X's user interface design.

Advanced Drum Editing: Bitwig's advanced drum editing capabilities, including step sequencing, groove editing, and randomization tools, are influenced by FL Studio's drum programming features.

Voice Stacking: Bitwig's unique voice stacking feature, which allows for layering and manipulating multiple instances of the same instrument, is inspired by Kontakt's multi-layer instruments and Massive's paraphonic capabilities.

Polyphonic Aftertouch: Bitwig's support for polyphonic aftertouch, which allows for simultaneous modulation of multiple parameters based on pressure applied to a MIDI keyboard, is taken from Native Instruments' Reaktor and Reason's modular instruments.

External Device Integration: Bitwig's seamless integration with external hardware synthesizers and MIDI devices is influenced by Cubase's external MIDI routing and hardware control options.

Note Editor: Bitwig's note editor, with its ability to edit and manipulate notes in real-time, resembles FL Studio's piano roll editing style.

Audio Effects: Bitwig incorporates audio effects inspired by various DAWs, including Ableton Live's Delay, Logic Pro X's EQ, and FL Studio's Fruity Parametric EQ 2.

In conclusion, Bitwig has skillfully combined features from various DAWs to create a unique and powerful music production environment. Its ability to adapt and incorporate innovative functionalities has earned it a loyal following among musicians and producers.

- google bard

+ design comes from
Képernyőfotó 2023-12-16 - 20.42.04.png
Cakewalk http://project5.technetos.com/ (which also can be found in the "Lets Discuss: The Complete History of Reason Clones" topic viewtopic.php?t=491904 )

ps. and what nonsense, written in C++, Java[wiki] they didn't even come up with those

Xerox > Apple…. Etc.
The “slight” differences is they took from the place that made them earn a living…

Anyway, 200 years from now Bitwig user will protest that their DAW started only 190 years ago and Ableton 200 years ago and Bitwig is too young to be judged

[SLiC]

+ design comes from
Képernyőfotó 2023-12-16 - 20.42.04.png
Cakewalk http://project5.technetos.com/ (which also can be found in the "Lets Discuss: The Complete History of Reason Clones" topic viewtopic.php?t=491904 )

It is amazing how much Bigwig looks like that, sidebar and all!

[liquidsound]

I was focusing more on the incredible options in Sequencers available in the M4L devices ecosystem which are way more inspirational than the Logic Sequencer (I dislike Logic in many ways...) due to the way they work.

Now, with Ableton 12 and the enhanced piano roll functions (including the possibility to incorporate M4L devices at leisure), I can't see Logic matching the overall end result in creative power compared to Ableton combinations of the "New" integration and the huge amount of devices available (and in the making... ).

Nope; no match, but just preferences which is OK of course.

An old Device (and just imagine stuff like this one being integrated in the Pianoroll...) sending MIDI as well.

First of all, you are talking about a commercial add-on. You have to pay money for it. There is a whole world of interesting sequencers available as plugins which one can use in any DAW.

Regarding M4L sequencers (including commercial ones). There are a lot of them and I've tried a bunch. There are some great ideas in them. There are also lots of limitations. Here is how it often went for me. Oh, this looks cool. Oh, nice feature... but now I want to do something and it cannot. Okay, try another M4L sequencer device. Nice, it does it, but it doesn't do this. Try another. After a bunch of time and money spent, my conclusion was I would prefer one device that was more comprehensive and flexible.

Enter Logic's Step Sequencer.

Besides added cost, Euclidean Sequencer Pro (Your example above) has only 4 lanes. Want a 5th? Nope, you gotta go find a different device.

Logic's Step Sequencer can have 4 lanes, or 5, or 10, 20 or more. It's open ended.

One of the big new features of Live 12 (which is an excellent feature for Live users) is that M4L devices can have some integration into the piano roll. That integration is limited, but a good step forward.

Logic's Step Sequencer hasn't just been integrated into the piano roll from day one. It IS the piano roll.

I can record my playing directly into the step sequencer (inducing notes being off the grid).
I can record live parameter tweaking directly into the sequencer.
I can convert the sequencer to a midi clip, tweak something, and convert it back to the sequencer.
I can add whatever number of parameter automation lanes that I want (simply by touching knobs on devices). All those lanes are visible at once.
Each lane can have its own number of steps and playback speed.
Plus the usual, probability, step length, repeats, etc., etc., etc.
Logics Step Sequencer is incredibly powerful, flexible and open ended.

Like you said, it is a matter of preference. Logic's one Step Sequencer would be more useful to me, than all the M4L stuff combined. I sent a feature request to the Bitwig devs explaining why, if they are going to add a dedicated sequencer device, I would prefer the Logic approach.

To me, lots of the M4L stuff is kinda like toys, cool visually, fun to play with, but annoyingly limited when you get down to the actual task of turning ideas into musical results. After a while, I stopped using them (before I stopped using Live altogether).

That's why in Bitwig, I mostly use regular midi clips, along with Operators and Note Expressions and Note FX, rather than sequencer plugins (which I find some use for too). For example, as a melodic sequencer tool, I prefer Riffer to anything I tried in M4L.

I also have a couple note driven euclidean sequencer presets saved in Bitwig using Note FX Layer device and multiple Note Repeats. I can use the Midi CAP plugin to "bounce" to midi at any point in a midi device chain. It's a more flexible system than what Live just added in V12.

Hello pdxindy. You still don’t get it
But anyhow, you run to Logic when Bitwig can’t hold itself to the arguments of “M4L sequencers” options, and more (of course).

You must have forgotten the title of this thread

[xbitz]

nah Google says Ableton Live will be the winner, end of debate, disperse

Based on current trends and the trajectory of both Ableton Live and Bitwig Studio, Ableton Live is likely to have a brighter future in the music production industry.

Here's a breakdown of the factors that support this prediction:

Market Share: Ableton Live boasts a significantly larger market share compared to Bitwig Studio. According to statistics, Ableton Live accounts for approximately 70% of the professional music production market, while Bitwig Studio only captures around 10%. This wide gap in market share suggests that Ableton Live is more widely adopted and preferred by music producers worldwide.

Community and Support: Ableton Live has a larger and more active community of users and developers compared to Bitwig Studio. This implies that Ableton Live has a stronger network of support and resources available to users, which can be crucial for troubleshooting issues, finding tutorials, and acquiring plugins and extensions.

Innovation and Updates: Ableton Live has a history of consistent innovation and regular updates, introducing new features and enhancements that keep the software at the forefront of the music production industry. Bitwig Studio, while also releasing updates, has not demonstrated the same pace of innovation and feature development as Ableton Live.

Suitability for Various Genres: Ableton Live is well-suited for a wide range of music genres, from EDM and hip-hop to pop and rock. This versatility allows Ableton Live to cater to a broader audience of music producers, further expanding its market share.

Integrations and Partnerships: Ableton Live maintains strong partnerships with various music hardware and software companies, ensuring seamless integrations and compatibility with industry-standard tools. Bitwig Studio also has partnerships, but they may not be as extensive or as widely recognized as Ableton Live's.

In conclusion, based on the factors mentioned above, it is likely that Ableton Live will maintain its dominant position in the music production industry in the long run. Its market share, community support, innovation track record, versatility, and integrations position it well for continued growth and success. While Bitwig Studio offers a compelling alternative, it may face challenges in catching up to Ableton Live's established dominance and momentum.

[liquidsound]

nah Google says Ableton Live will be the winner, end of debate, disperse

Based on current trends and the trajectory of both Ableton Live and Bitwig Studio, Ableton Live is likely to have a brighter future in the music production industry.

Here's a breakdown of the factors that support this prediction:

Market Share: Ableton Live boasts a significantly larger market share compared to Bitwig Studio. According to statistics, Ableton Live accounts for approximately 70% of the professional music production market, while Bitwig Studio only captures around 10%. This wide gap in market share suggests that Ableton Live is more widely adopted and preferred by music producers worldwide.

Community and Support: Ableton Live has a larger and more active community of users and developers compared to Bitwig Studio. This implies that Ableton Live has a stronger network of support and resources available to users, which can be crucial for troubleshooting issues, finding tutorials, and acquiring plugins and extensions.

Innovation and Updates: Ableton Live has a history of consistent innovation and regular updates, introducing new features and enhancements that keep the software at the forefront of the music production industry. Bitwig Studio, while also releasing updates, has not demonstrated the same pace of innovation and feature development as Ableton Live.

Suitability for Various Genres: Ableton Live is well-suited for a wide range of music genres, from EDM and hip-hop to pop and rock. This versatility allows Ableton Live to cater to a broader audience of music producers, further expanding its market share.

Integrations and Partnerships: Ableton Live maintains strong partnerships with various music hardware and software companies, ensuring seamless integrations and compatibility with industry-standard tools. Bitwig Studio also has partnerships, but they may not be as extensive or as widely recognized as Ableton Live's.

In conclusion, based on the factors mentioned above, it is likely that Ableton Live will maintain its dominant position in the music production industry in the long run. Its market share, community support, innovation track record, versatility, and integrations position it well for continued growth and success. While Bitwig Studio offers a compelling alternative, it may face challenges in catching up to Ableton Live's established dominance and momentum.

But the real reason is because “liquidsound” said so!

[enCiphered]

Incredible how much freaking energy you all put into endlessly debating which DAW is superior instead of just embracing the one you are using most. I'm pretty sure what actually matters to you guys isn't highlighting the awesome features of your chosen DAW, but more like having the final say.
It's nuts... anyone who has that much time can't be a real musician or music creator. (Insert a picture of a monkey wearing a crown here)

[SLiC]

I suspect at some point Bitwig will be sold unfortunately, that seems to be the way the industry is going

[liquidsound]

Incredible how much freaking energy you all put into endlessly debating which DAW is superior instead of just embracing the one you are using most. I'm pretty sure what actually matters to you guys isn't highlighting the awesome features of your chosen DAW, but more like having the final say.
It's nuts... anyone who has that much time can't be a real musician or music creator. (Insert a picture of a monkey wearing a crown here)

Thanks for sharing you energy. We all need it.

[liquidsound]

I suspect at some point Bitwig will be sold unfortunately, that seems to be the way the industry is going

Honestly, that would be the saddest thing.