Sad state of Native Instruments

[chk071]

"Catastrophizing" is a very fitting term for what many people do on this site. That's why I gratulated him for his spot on post.

You just showed the perfect example of this behavior.

[Milkman]

Im thinking that when I wrote those long, scathing criticism's of NI's new brand philosophy on NI's own forums, where I referenced how "you cant control PR on KVR and on other sites, so if you make it hard to criticize the brand from their own forum, we will just keep to KVR, etc" that this may have motivated some KVR brand management energy? roffffffl I mean whatever. I dont care what your career is, I just dont have to take it seriously.

[Milkman]

"Catastrophizing" is a very fitting term for what many people do on this site. That's why I gratulated him for his spot on post.

You just showed the perfect example of this behavior.

You should feel shame for using armchair psych to try to demoralize customers of the brand you are defending. You sound like a landlord during a rent control discussion.

[chk071]

"Catastrophizing" is a very fitting term for what many people do on this site. That's why I gratulated him for his spot on post.

You just showed the perfect example of this behavior.

You should feel shame for using armchair psych to try to demoralize customers of the brand you are defending. You sound like a landlord during a rent control discussion.

And you just sound... extreme.

[Scoops]

<Snip>
so F_O.
<snip>

Jesus Loves you

[Milkman]

"Catastrophizing" is a very fitting term for what many people do on this site. That's why I gratulated him for his spot on post.

You just showed the perfect example of this behavior.

You should feel shame for using armchair psych to try to demoralize customers of the brand you are defending. You sound like a landlord during a rent control discussion.

And you just sound... extreme.

Yeah, its obvious. Extremism online today = holding to basic consumer principals, calling out brands for well documented problems, and being unafraid to do so even in front of caustic pro-brand nonsense like yours.

What was the most Exxxtreme thing I said?

The part about how private equity bought NI, and then immediately the garbage started piling up? Or was it reminding you how Brian Clevinger *actually* feels about NI choosing to abandon 1 of the core flagship products that allowed them to be successful in the first place?

-Extremism online in 2024 is when you mention the worsening of brands you have patronized for 20 years and spent $1000s on.
-Promoting and protecting said brands, attacking people with legitimate experiences, ISNT extremism. Ok. Got it.

[swilow11]

I don't think using a term like catastrophising is offensive or inaccurate here. From my perspective, and the multitudes who aren't complaining, NI stuff is very good quality. When there are issues, they are almost always resolved. That there are issues doesn't mean much beyond NI being a big player with a lot of moving parts.

I use NI for about 10% of my musical stuff.

Every dev has technical issues and glitches. I just think that NI are so big that their issues have much broader impact than most.

A lot of the issues in this thread are either minor and/or temporary. But some people here seem primed to catastrophise everything negative that is related to NI and get positive feedback for doing so.

Not trying to dismiss people who have encountered problems. But for me, for what I do, NI actually run smoothly. Native Access is a great installer, better than most, and the products I use (Reaktor, Ashlight/sample libraries) are great.

I will say that I've been playing with MASSIVE X again and am slightly appalled by how unfinished it seems but I think we can just chalk that up as a missed opportunity. Reaktor otoh is still amazing.

This sounds exactly like someone who pursues music only as a hobby. But if you make your living with it, things are different. I'm not saying that most of the people here who point out problems are professionals, but I'm 100% sure that some of them rely on working projects and plugins, and if that's not the case, they have to use time-consuming and elaborate workarounds to be able to deliver their work at the end of the day.

I know, it is difficult to empathize with someone else's situation...

I am empathising and I don't think this stuff is as big of an issue as people are making it out to be. I understand that it would be frustrating though. I was trying to add some balance to the discussion.

My annoyance at the thinly veiled elitism in your post aside, like the majority of people here, I am indeed a hobbyist. I don't particularly agree that sunk costs add gravity to an opinion although I get your broader point. But let's be honest, most people don't get the privelidge of making their passion into a livelihood and the majority of NI users are almost certainly hobbyists like me. So if you think it invalidates my opinion, it surely invalidates the majority of opinions in this thread.

All that aside, I've done music for over 30 years and studied audio engineering and worked in the industry so I've certainly got empathy for those who rely on 3rd parties to earn their livelihood. I guess I am saying that one can still rely on NI despite the issues.

[swilow11]

Damn, I just bought a bunch of different Reaktor blocks and installing and using them has been both simple and fun. Something is up here for sure

Don’t worry. Blocks are kinda dead, but the existing ones are still amazing and will continue to be so. Just get all the Toybox packs and you’re good for a while

Yep, that's what I did- got the Atomic Pack and made some sweet sounds last night. Their products are so cheap atm, I'm going to have to get some more. Any recommendations? It's hard to tell if the packs contain duplicate blocks, and the lists are freaking massive so difficult to assess.

[Milkman]

I don't think using a term like catastrophising is offensive or inaccurate here. From my perspective, and the multitudes who aren't complaining, NI stuff is very good quality. When there are issues, they are almost always resolved. That there are issues doesn't mean much beyond NI being a big player with a lot of moving parts.

I use NI for about 10% of my musical stuff.

Every dev has technical issues and glitches. I just think that NI are so big that their issues have much broader impact than most.

A lot of the issues in this thread are either minor and/or temporary. But some people here seem primed to catastrophise everything negative that is related to NI and get positive feedback for doing so.

Not trying to dismiss people who have encountered problems. But for me, for what I do, NI actually run smoothly. Native Access is a great installer, better than most, and the products I use (Reaktor, Ashlight/sample libraries) are great.

I will say that I've been playing with MASSIVE X again and am slightly appalled by how unfinished it seems but I think we can just chalk that up as a missed opportunity. Reaktor otoh is still amazing.

This sounds exactly like someone who pursues music only as a hobby. But if you make your living with it, things are different. I'm not saying that most of the people here who point out problems are professionals, but I'm 100% sure that some of them rely on working projects and plugins, and if that's not the case, they have to use time-consuming and elaborate workarounds to be able to deliver their work at the end of the day.

I know, it is difficult to empathize with someone else's situation...

I am empathising and I don't think this stuff is as big of an issue as people are making it out to be. I understand that it would be frustrating though. I was trying to add some balance to the discussion.

My annoyance at the thinly veiled elitism in your post aside, like the majority of people here, I am indeed a hobbyist. I don't particularly agree that sunk costs add gravity to an opinion although I get your broader point. But let's be honest, most people don't get the privelidge of making their passion into a livelihood and the majority of NI users are almost certainly hobbyists like me. So if you think it invalidates my opinion, it surely invalidates the majority of opinions in this thread.

All that aside, I've done music for over 30 years and studied audio engineering and worked in the industry so I've certainly got empathy for those who rely on 3rd parties to earn their livelihood. I guess I am saying that one can still rely on NI despite the issues.

Ok let me try again, perhaps in a way you will understand. Its similar to other ableism or other issues where people misuse a term, such as "OCD". (Everyone who pays attention to detail = OCD if you talk to the wrong person)

Being MARRIED TO SOMEONE whose mother is in therapy -- who has been told she CATASTROPHIZES constantly, and this has had an affect on my wife's own psych outcome -- has been difficult. Catastrophizing is a REAL disorder that comes from greater disorders of the mind, and results from greater traumas and neurotic conditions. Catastrophizing isnt what you say to people writing obviously legitimate experiences....... about brand products online.

Unless you are an ass, of course.

'Catastrophizing' is NOT when you decide someone has provided too many persuasive details about a factual matter we can all observe.

Edit: "thinly veiled elitism"? Once again, that's me? Im "elitist" for criticizing a music brand from a place of experience on a forum specifically for discussing music brands?

I mean, what?

[swilow11]

I don't think using a term like catastrophising is offensive or inaccurate here. From my perspective, and the multitudes who aren't complaining, NI stuff is very good quality. When there are issues, they are almost always resolved. That there are issues doesn't mean much beyond NI being a big player with a lot of moving parts.

I use NI for about 10% of my musical stuff.

Every dev has technical issues and glitches. I just think that NI are so big that their issues have much broader impact than most.

A lot of the issues in this thread are either minor and/or temporary. But some people here seem primed to catastrophise everything negative that is related to NI and get positive feedback for doing so.

Not trying to dismiss people who have encountered problems. But for me, for what I do, NI actually run smoothly. Native Access is a great installer, better than most, and the products I use (Reaktor, Ashlight/sample libraries) are great.

I will say that I've been playing with MASSIVE X again and am slightly appalled by how unfinished it seems but I think we can just chalk that up as a missed opportunity. Reaktor otoh is still amazing.

This sounds exactly like someone who pursues music only as a hobby. But if you make your living with it, things are different. I'm not saying that most of the people here who point out problems are professionals, but I'm 100% sure that some of them rely on working projects and plugins, and if that's not the case, they have to use time-consuming and elaborate workarounds to be able to deliver their work at the end of the day.

I know, it is difficult to empathize with someone else's situation...

I am empathising and I don't think this stuff is as big of an issue as people are making it out to be. I understand that it would be frustrating though. I was trying to add some balance to the discussion.

My annoyance at the thinly veiled elitism in your post aside, like the majority of people here, I am indeed a hobbyist. I don't particularly agree that sunk costs add gravity to an opinion although I get your broader point. But let's be honest, most people don't get the privelidge of making their passion into a livelihood and the majority of NI users are almost certainly hobbyists like me. So if you think it invalidates my opinion, it surely invalidates the majority of opinions in this thread.

All that aside, I've done music for over 30 years and studied audio engineering and worked in the industry so I've certainly got empathy for those who rely on 3rd parties to earn their livelihood. I guess I am saying that one can still rely on NI despite the issues.

Ok let me try again, perhaps in a way you will understand. Its similar to other ableism or other issues where people misuse a term, such as "OCD". (Everyone who pays attention to detail = OCD if you talk to the wrong person)

Being MARRIED TO SOMEONE whose mother is in therapy -- who has been told she CATASTROPHIZES constantly, and this has had an affect on my wife's own psych outcome -- has been difficult. Catastrophizing is a REAL disorder that comes from greater disorders of the mind, and results from greater traumas and neurotic conditions. Catastrophizing isnt what you say to people writing obviously legitimate experiences....... about brand products online.

Unless you are an ass, of course.

'Catastrophizing' is NOT when you decide someone has provided too many persuasive details about a factual matter we can all observe.

Edit: "thinly veiled elitism"? Once again, that's me? Im "elitist" for criticizing a music brand from a place of experience on a forum specifically for discussing music brands?

I mean, what?

Oh, come on. Disagree with what I said, but accusing me of ableism because I used the nuanced term "catastrophising" in an obviously non-medical context is just laughable. I'm clearly not talking about neuroticism or other mentally maladaptive states, the likes of which I have personal experience of and deep sympathy for- I'm talking about exaggerating the pitfalls of a music software company. Trying to leverage ideas such as ableism and the suffering of others to shut down a forum discussion is a terrible look and one you should reflect on. Suffice it to say, if anyone is offended by what I wrote, my apologies and also gtf over yourself.

You then proceed to call me an ass because I have a different take on an issue than the royal "we" you apparently represent. Sorry, but I'm seeing the moral high ground you're imagining yourself on simply evaporating. You and many others here are simply bullies.

I concede that NI have annoying issues. I suggest that they also make some amazing products that work flawlessly, and ime this is not uncommon or anomalous but is actually typical of NI products. Clearly there is some subjectivity influencing perceptions here and creating opposing views, neither of which or perhaps both are right? In the apparently closed system of this thread though, it seems that one perspective is being over represented. Hence my input. Take it or leave it, agree or disagree, but please don't attack me or make offensive claims about me- that's an instant loss imo.

BTW, I was referring to whoever I quoted as exhibiting "elitism" in deploying the 'musical hobbyist' denigration which is meant only as an ad hominen attack and not a substantive refutation of the stated perspective. I pointed out that it wasn't entirely true but that it's also irrelevant.

[Milkman]

I don't think using a term like catastrophising is offensive or inaccurate here. From my perspective, and the multitudes who aren't complaining, NI stuff is very good quality. When there are issues, they are almost always resolved. That there are issues doesn't mean much beyond NI being a big player with a lot of moving parts.

I use NI for about 10% of my musical stuff.

Every dev has technical issues and glitches. I just think that NI are so big that their issues have much broader impact than most.

A lot of the issues in this thread are either minor and/or temporary. But some people here seem primed to catastrophise everything negative that is related to NI and get positive feedback for doing so.

Not trying to dismiss people who have encountered problems. But for me, for what I do, NI actually run smoothly. Native Access is a great installer, better than most, and the products I use (Reaktor, Ashlight/sample libraries) are great.

I will say that I've been playing with MASSIVE X again and am slightly appalled by how unfinished it seems but I think we can just chalk that up as a missed opportunity. Reaktor otoh is still amazing.

This sounds exactly like someone who pursues music only as a hobby. But if you make your living with it, things are different. I'm not saying that most of the people here who point out problems are professionals, but I'm 100% sure that some of them rely on working projects and plugins, and if that's not the case, they have to use time-consuming and elaborate workarounds to be able to deliver their work at the end of the day.

I know, it is difficult to empathize with someone else's situation...

I am empathising and I don't think this stuff is as big of an issue as people are making it out to be. I understand that it would be frustrating though. I was trying to add some balance to the discussion.

My annoyance at the thinly veiled elitism in your post aside, like the majority of people here, I am indeed a hobbyist. I don't particularly agree that sunk costs add gravity to an opinion although I get your broader point. But let's be honest, most people don't get the privelidge of making their passion into a livelihood and the majority of NI users are almost certainly hobbyists like me. So if you think it invalidates my opinion, it surely invalidates the majority of opinions in this thread.

All that aside, I've done music for over 30 years and studied audio engineering and worked in the industry so I've certainly got empathy for those who rely on 3rd parties to earn their livelihood. I guess I am saying that one can still rely on NI despite the issues.

Ok let me try again, perhaps in a way you will understand. Its similar to other ableism or other issues where people misuse a term, such as "OCD". (Everyone who pays attention to detail = OCD if you talk to the wrong person)

Being MARRIED TO SOMEONE whose mother is in therapy -- who has been told she CATASTROPHIZES constantly, and this has had an affect on my wife's own psych outcome -- has been difficult. Catastrophizing is a REAL disorder that comes from greater disorders of the mind, and results from greater traumas and neurotic conditions. Catastrophizing isnt what you say to people writing obviously legitimate experiences....... about brand products online.

Unless you are an ass, of course.

'Catastrophizing' is NOT when you decide someone has provided too many persuasive details about a factual matter we can all observe.

Edit: "thinly veiled elitism"? Once again, that's me? Im "elitist" for criticizing a music brand from a place of experience on a forum specifically for discussing music brands?

I mean, what?

Oh, come on. Disagree with what I said, but accusing me of ableism because I used the nuanced term "catastrophising" in an obviously non-medical context is just laughable. I'm clearly not talking about neuroticism or other mentally maladaptive states, the likes of which I have personal experience of and deep sympathy for- I'm talking about exaggerating the pitfalls of a music software company. Trying to leverage ideas such as ableism and the suffering of others to shut down a forum discussion is a terrible look and one you should reflect on. Suffice it to say, if anyone is offended by what I wrote, my apologies and also gtf over yourself.

You then proceed to call me an ass because I have a different take on an issue than the royal "we" you apparently represent. Sorry, but I'm seeing the moral high ground you're imagining yourself on simply evaporating. You and many others here are simply bullies.

I concede that NI have annoying issues. I suggest that they also make some amazing products that work flawlessly, and ime this is not uncommon or anomalous but is actually typical of NI products. Clearly there is some subjectivity influencing perceptions here and creating opposing views, neither of which or perhaps both are right? In the apparently closed system of this thread though, it seems that one perspective is being over represented. Hence my input. Take it or leave it, agree or disagree, but please don't attack me or make offensive claims about me- that's an instant loss imo.

BTW, I was referring to whoever I quoted as exhibiting "elitism" in deploying the 'musical hobbyist' denigration which is meant only as an ad hominen attack and not a substantive refutation of the stated perspective. I pointed out that it wasn't entirely true but that it's also irrelevant.

I see, so the other angle - empathy - doesnt work for you either, and you want to associate my regular old brand criticism with something akin to mental illness none the less. Got it. Goodbye, and I certainly wish the forum had less rules on obscenities because I have a few queued up with your name on them.

[Milkman]

I would really like to promote the idea of words like f$#k and sh** being acceptable on this forum. Hate speech is never ok, but for some kinds of people there really isnt any other legitimate way to address them outside obscenity.

[thecontrolcentre]

... and breathe

[Milkman]

... and breathe

No breathing problems here, friendo! You?

-the urge to associate non-weak brand criticism with subjective personal issues.

[swilow11]

I see, so the other angle - empathy - doesnt work for you either, and you want to associate my regular old brand criticism with something akin to mental illness none the less. Got it. Goodbye, and I certainly wish the forum had less rules on obscenities because I have a few queued up with your name on them.

You're the one who started talking about your mother in law in therapy.

Why would this make anyone so angry that they want to swear at someone about it? It's music software ffs. Ridiculous.