Hey IK, When You Finally Do MODO Guitar...

[noiseboyuk]

You'd get away with that in the background, mixed down for rhythmic accompaniment, but nothing further. For me anyway.

...and that's fine for a critical ear.

The open string thing can't really be done at all without an awful lot of bodging - I'm still not convinced it can be done at all in a single pass. But no-one has yet tried to demonstrate otherwise.

[pdxindy]

And even if someone spends weeks painstakingly replicating every nuance of a particular performance, it will never have the interactive beauty of live musicians playing together when they hit a groove. The guitar is an incredible instrument for rhythm and groove.

Just a musician in the moment hitting the groove...

Thanks... that demonstrates my point well... that does not sound like guitar and sounds mechanical/repetitive like a midi keyboard and plugin. It is missing all the nuance that just happens naturally when playing a guitar because a guitar is far more variable than a keyboard.

A keyboard has 1 per note variable available when exciting a string - velocity.
A guitar has something like 6-8 of them and they are physically integral to playing the instrument.

Then there is just the physical differences of the instruments. Even a relative beginner on the guitar can strum chords in ways that the greatest of keyboard players couldn't duplicate.

I love keyboards and synths and love playing them... they have their own beauty and capability, but they aren't guitars and never can be.

[pdxindy]

You'd get away with that in the background, mixed down for rhythmic accompaniment, but nothing further. For me anyway.

Even then, it's still boring... it's never gonna have the flair and nuance. Good rhythm guitar adds so much beyond being a snapshot in a collage.

[pekbro]

YEah nothing in that video sounds even remotely like someone playing the guitar.

[noiseboyuk]

YEah nothing in that video sounds even remotely like someone playing the guitar.

IMO hyperbole doesn't help this argument.

I've been playing guitar for 30 years. Some of that video sounds sorta okay to me. Some of it doesn't. None of it passes very close inspection, but you could use some of it in a mix and get away with it.

The Strummed Acoustic example is considerably better again. That would work just fine in a mix. Like most VIs, there is a reality difference on an A/B comparison, but that's true with violins, clarinets and everything. Yet people successfully and skillfully use the best these tools all the time.

But my other example - a VI could simply not play it (is my contention). It's not a case of saying "oh it doesn't sound as good", it just fundamentally could not do it. It's a world of difference.

[pekbro]

Sorry, to me it's not very convincing at all. I didn't say it sounded bad, just not convincing as a guitar performance, which I thought was the point anyway. I've been playing the guitar more than a decade longer than you as if that's got anything to do with it. *shrug

[noiseboyuk]

Sorry, to me it's not very convincing at all. I didn't say it sounded bad, just not convincing as a guitar performance, which I thought was the point anyway. I've been playing the guitar more than a decade longer than you as if that's got anything to do with it. *shrug

LOL - yeah, 30 years playing = doesn't know what a guitar sounds like, 40 years = now we're talking *shrug

It may seem like semantics but this is how these debates become so utterly pointless. That video, demonstrably sounds LIKE a guitar. We can argue all day about how well it does it - I hear good and bad, you hear it all bad. But it sounds LIKE a guitar in a way it doesn't sound like a cor anglais or a freight train. Anyone could hear that audio and say "oh that sounds like a guitar / is a guitar". The form of words "sounds nothing like" immediately pushes the whole conversation into extremes, it is such a nonsensical thing to say on the face of it that no further sensible conversation can be had about it.

VIs and sampled instruments are all bags of tricks, every single one of them. We've moved from sampling one velocity across several notes to phenomenal levels of complexity. The instruments themselves vary in level of challenge. With all due respect to drummers, there's a limited about of tones you're gonna get out of a kick drum and a pedal, but even there mic placement can make a big difference. Yet hitting a key on a keyboard as an analog for a drum with a pedal sorta works - hit both harder and they sound more intense. But when it comes to instruments you blow or bow, the challenges become much tougher.

The humble guitar, with its six strings all with independent pitch, is one of the hardest of all (save the human voice). Our VIs now have come on immeasurably. Very talented developers have got us to the point where it often really does sound LIKE a guitar. But - and I'm sorry to keep banging on about this, but it is fundamental - there are types of playing which thus far I've never heard a guitar VI be able to do. And I think it's a brick wall, or at least a very very hard one. You can now get passable strumming to get you in the ball park, but figures sliding around open strings is something conceptually that a keyboard is never cut out to doing.

[pekbro]

LOL - yeah, 30 years playing = doesn't know what a guitar sounds like, 40 years = now we're talking *shrug

Just to be clear, I didn't say that. You said that...

Anyway, fact of the matter is imo, that video definitely sounds like someone playing a keyboard and not a guitar.

[pdxindy]

That video, demonstrably sounds LIKE a guitar.

There are two different aspects that can be talked about. A sample of a guitar sounds like a guitar cause it is a recording of one. I've synthesized guitar plucks that sound very close to an acoustic guitar.

What never sounds like a guitar is the playing of it. And the more the complexity of sample libraries and articulations, and options are added, the farther it gets away from the natural nuance and groove and flow that is the beauty of a guitar played realtime by a skilled guitarist.

[Burillo]

What never sounds like a guitar is the playing of it. And the more the complexity of sample libraries and articulations, and options are added, the farther it gets away from the natural nuance and groove and flow that is the beauty of a guitar played realtime by a skilled guitarist.

that is magical thinking. these "nuance" and "groove" and "flow" that you're referring to, are not irreducible: they can, in theory, be replicated to the point where you wouldn't notice the difference. the problem is that reproducing these nuances correctly is a very difficult task - but this is not due to some ethemeral "magic" or "naturalness" of a "skilled guitarist", this is simply complexity of guitar as an instrument - in other words, it's easier for a skilled guitarist to do it because they have a different set of constraints to work with. the reverse can be true - things that are impossible to play on e.g. drums are pretty easy to play on keyboard using drum samples.

[donkey tugger]

What never sounds like a guitar is the playing of it. And the more the complexity of sample libraries and articulations, and options are added, the farther it gets away from the natural nuance and groove and flow that is the beauty of a guitar played realtime by a skilled guitarist.

that is magical thinking. these "nuance" and "groove" and "flow" that you're referring to, are not irreducible: they can, in theory, be replicated to the point where you wouldn't notice the difference. the problem is that reproducing these nuances correctly is a very difficult task - but this is not due to some ethemeral "magic" or "naturalness" of a "skilled guitarist", this is simply complexity of guitar as an instrument - in other words, it's easier for a skilled guitarist to do it because they have a different set of constraints to work with. the reverse can be true - things that are impossible to play on e.g. drums are pretty easy to play on keyboard using drum samples.

Your materialism is showing Comrade.

[Uncle E]

Yamaha’s do it automatically. Finger squeaks, harmonics, and slides just happen when you play them live. It’s not perfect but it’s a lot better than that Jordan Rudess video. If he were playing a clean guitar patch on a Yamaha into a good amp, it would sound a lot more realistic.

[donkey tugger]

Yamaha’s do it automatically. Finger squeaks, harmonics, and slides just happen when you play them live. It’s not perfect but it’s a lot better than that Jordan Rudess video. If he were playing a clean guitar patch on a Yamaha into a good amp, it would sound a lot more realistic.

How does it do strumming? The vast majority of guitar playing isn't widdling and metel riffs, it's rhythm.

[noiseboyuk]

What never sounds like a guitar is the playing of it.

Geez... what is it with KVR and hyperbole?

I'm usually the one saying guitar VIs are never as good as the real thing, but that seems to be an insanely moderate position here. Unless a guitar VI NEVER sounds like a guitar because the playing is ALWAYS robotic and hopeless, you're in denial. It seems.

[benjamind]

It sounds robotic because it is handled with samples as opposed to actually modelling the nuances of the string.

Physical modeling can remove a lot of that "robotic effect".