Pianoteq - Looks Like new Modelled Piano

[aMUSEd]

It's not difficult to grasp - yes sound from an instrument being played has dynamic qualities - this is far more apparent though in a PM instrument which has more of the responsiveness (i.e. "feel") of a real instrument, such as variations due to to subtleties of touch and technique, than in a sample based instrument that only has a certain number of velocity layers and tends to have a more static sound quality (though it can come somewhat closer with techniques like scripting).

Im not talking samples vs. pm.
Im talking in general.
The closer a VST comes to the intstrument it's emulating, the more 'feel and response" it will have too, because this translates to the sound.

This is not difficult to grasp either.

"In general" yes, but the point I was making (and I thought that was meatwalker's point too) was that that a particular instrument can sound closer in some respects such as the "raw" sound but less close in others (such as the dynamism of the sound) and that often when people refer to "realism" they are referring to that one aspect only. Ideally an emulation of an acoustic instrument should have both - up till now sample based instruments have managed one of those aspects but at the expense of the other, now this synth comes closer in terms of dynamism but is not yet as close in terms of realistic sound - in time I'm sure we will see improvements in the PM engine and maybe further convergence of technologies but up till now there is uneven development and because of that certain people are focusing more on some lements than others, as their musical inclinations and tastes take them it seem to be which is fine.

[kevink]

to be honest ive never even played an a electric piano and i dont care for the replicative quality of either of these instruments, i just care how real-like it sounds, and how much i can tweak it. and pianoteq just sounds a f**k of a lot better to me.

Then I would strongly suggest you download and try the demo of AAS' String Studio. It's "Piano" patches sound even less like an accoustic piano than Pianoteq, but it gives you *much* more room to tweak and create virtual accoustic instruments.

[Dr.Wu]

Sculpture is also a very powerful physical modeling synthesizer.
Logic 7 only though.

[Pianoteq]

Having the early knowledge of convincingly moddeling a grand piano, would this give you the ability by now , thru this first experience, to have a precise preconcieved idea on how to model :

- other kind of acoustic keyboards ( like Harpsichords or Clavichords, etc ... ) , or...

- Hammered strings instruments or similar ( Cimbalom, Santoor,. etc...) ?

this makes me very curious...

The answer is yes. We may offer other keyboard and hammer string instruments in the future.

We have now released version 1.0.1 of Pianoteq (bug fixes). If you experience anything bug-alike please download the new version. Do not hesitate contacting us if you need assistance.

Thanks all for your input so far.

Niclas Fogwall
Sales & support
Pianoteq
www.pianoteq.com

[Cordelia]

aMUSEd,
I get your point, you make a good case, but you might unhitch your wagon from meatwalker's train- I think you're giving him a little too much credit.
I haven't enjoyed playing Pianoteq demo any more than any of my nice soundfonts. I've played piano for many years and I'm not getting that WOW special vibe off of this VSTi, just a feeling of disappointment with the sound after all the crazy hype. In the end, for me, no matter what technology is involved, the sound has to be more accurate and inspiring than Pianoteq, ESPECIALLY for this price.
I would have loved for Pianoteq to be THAT piano VST. The one that makes my SFs obsolete. I'd say that the fake hype- beta tester "leaking" the news, brand new KvR members (who seem to know nothing about piano) posting outrageous claims -has backfired for me. Rubs me the wrong way.

[kevink]

aMUSEd,
I get your point, you make a good case, but you might unhitch your wagon from meatwalker's train- I think you're giving him a little too much credit.
I haven't enjoyed playing Pianoteq demo any more than any of my nice soundfonts. I've played piano for many years and I'm not getting that WOW special vibe off of this VSTi, just a feeling of disappointment with the sound after all the crazy hype. In the end, for me, no matter what technology is involved, the sound has to be more accurate and inspiring than Pianoteq, ESPECIALLY for this price.
I would have loved for Pianoteq to be THAT piano VST. The one that makes my SFs obsolete. I'd say that the fake hype- beta tester "leaking" the news, brand new KvR members (who seem to know nothing about piano) posting outrageous claims -has backfired for me. Rubs me the wrong way.

Question: What sort of keyboard controller are you using? With a weighted hammer-action keyboard (StudioLogic SL-880Pro) the Pianoteq demo gives me that rewarding, interactive, physical modelling "feel" and response that I haven't got with any of the multisampled piano sample sets I've tried (I haven't tried Ivory, but I do have the Post Boesendorfer, GPO Steinway, and Maestro Malmsjo sets). As I noted much earlier in the thread, I don't find the actual sound of the Pianoteq plug to be as realistic as some others seem to, and if I were playing it with a basic velocity-sensitive synth keyboard, I could easily imagine not understanding what the buzz was all about.

[aMUSEd]

I would have loved for Pianoteq to be THAT piano VST. The one that makes my SFs obsolete. I'd say that the fake hype- beta tester "leaking" the news, brand new KvR members (who seem to know nothing about piano) posting outrageous claims -has backfired for me. Rubs me the wrong way.

I think you are mistaken in thinking its just a few newbies that don't know what they are talking about (this time at least). Many of the people who have praised this synth (including myself) have a fair bit of experience playing piano and as musicians (many more so than myself) and I have seen comments in this and other threads by experienced developers and sound designers such as Eric Persing from Spectrasonics and Fabrice from Eliosound. I think we would all agree that soundwise it has a way to go to catch up with the better sample libraries (though I have to say that personally it trounces any soundfont I've used) for overall "realism" (in the narrow sense I mentioned earlier) but that it is still a playable and enjoyable instrument in it's own right and since it is still in the early stages merits not just attention but also our suppport - it may not be "the one" yet but it has a better chance of becoming it than the sample lib route which in my opinion is a dead end on it's own, leading only to increasing bloat, and that PM based or hybrid approaches offer the way forward. I understand your scepticism regarding "announcements" but I think in this case it is unwarranted and that if you look at the people who started this thread their "credentials" are fine.

[Cryogenic]

aMUSEd,
I get your point, you make a good case, but you might unhitch your wagon from meatwalker's train- I think you're giving him a little too much credit.
I haven't enjoyed playing Pianoteq demo any more than any of my nice soundfonts. I've played piano for many years and I'm not getting that WOW special vibe off of this VSTi, just a feeling of disappointment with the sound after all the crazy hype. In the end, for me, no matter what technology is involved, the sound has to be more accurate and inspiring than Pianoteq, ESPECIALLY for this price.
I would have loved for Pianoteq to be THAT piano VST. The one that makes my SFs obsolete. I'd say that the fake hype- beta tester "leaking" the news, brand new KvR members (who seem to know nothing about piano) posting outrageous claims -has backfired for me. Rubs me the wrong way.

Question: What sort of keyboard controller are you using? With a weighted hammer-action keyboard (StudioLogic SL-880Pro) the Pianoteq demo gives me that rewarding, interactive, physical modelling "feel" and response that I haven't got with any of the multisampled piano sample sets I've tried (I haven't tried Ivory, but I do have the Post Boesendorfer, GPO Steinway, and Maestro Malmsjo sets). As I noted much earlier in the thread, I don't find the actual sound of the Pianoteq plug to be as realistic as some others seem to, and if I were playing it with a basic velocity-sensitive synth keyboard, I could easily imagine not understanding what the buzz was all about.

Yeah. But what kind of 'feel' is it?
Is it the 'right' feel, when the sound goes ploink, instead of a real piano sound response?

And <rewarding, interactive, physical modelling "feel"> is just hype, atleast when you compare that with sampled sets, and not a real piano.
Is it a PM feel/sound you're after, or the real piano feel/sound?

[kevink]

And <rewarding, interactive, physical modelling "feel"> is just hype, atleast when you compare that with sampled sets, and not a real piano.

I really don't think you know what you're talking about here. I have a real piano (W. Hoffmann baby grand), sample sets, and a number of softsynths, some of which are physical modelling synths, and there is simply no doubt that the complex nonlinear responses produced by PM synths when played with a controller that provides tactile feedback (e.g. weighted keys) make them more expressive in response to dynamic nuances than any other form of sampler/rompler/hard/soft/synth I've ever tried, approaching the responsiveness of a real piano. I would not rule out the possibiltiy that an exquisitely programmed multisample set might get close one day, but those I've tried have been no contest. Which sample set have you tried that you found to be as realistically expressive as which PM synth?

[subtlearts]

Hi. Thought I'd drop my two cents here, though I'm not known on these boards. And, before someone asks, I am also most definitely not associated with Modartt (or any other music software manufacturer) in any way.

I spent most of the day today mucking about with the Pianoteq demo, and comparing it to a number of sample sets, both those I own and some I can only hear web demos of. Reason being,I needed to decide whether to spring for the NI anniversary special on Akoustik Piano before it expired. So I was checking out the competition and stumbled, to my very pleasant surprise, on Pianoteq. I doubt I am the only person who has wondered for, well, years, when a real, fully modelled piano plugin or module would appear. Never been happy with static samples 'cause I spend too much time on real pianos and my fingers and my ears know the difference all too well. I used the GeneralMusic RealPiano module for several years just because it was the only thing on the market that did something approximating sympathetic string response; chords sounded vaguely like chords.

Background: I am a professional jazz pianist of long standing, studied at McGill in Montreal, have released a number of solo piano albums and made my living this way, entirely, for getting on towards two decades. As a composer, piano figures pretty heavily in most of the music I make. I also own two grands, have apprenticed as a technician and have tuned well over a thousand pianos. So I feel relatively qualified to comment on pianistic realism. I have also played 'artificial' pianos of every conceivable pedigree, mostly without much satisfaction (except for real electromechanicals which are a different story of course).

So. I was playing the Pianoteq from a weighted-action controller (Fatar Studiologic) and monitoring through an E-Mu 1616m and good studio headphones. I was less than overwhelmed by the sound at first, especially the high end, which seemed tinny and thin... but,as I tried some of the performance things that have always drawn out the weaknesses in sample-based plugs and modules, it began to grow on me.

Then I started to tweak the finer details of tuning, voicing and design, and I began to be more and more intrigued and impressed. Within an hour I had created a number of different settings which I felt significantly surpassed the included presets in terms of realism and 'performance enjoyment'. Not to say they're objectively better, but they worked better for me. And, quite honestly, they work better for me overall, as a total playing and listening experience, than any sampled piano I have ever played. And that's after an hour or so with the demo.

Now, I should qualify that by saying I have never played Ivory, which I hear nothing but raves about, and I will admit that I have been very impressed with the samples I have heard. To my ears, at least judging by the online samples, it has more warmth and character than any other sample set, including Akoustik Piano, and quite likely more than Pianoteq in its current form, at least 'out of the box'.

However the more I listened to the Ivory samples, the more its weaknesses stuck out at me - a kind of unrealistic hype in the bass, the static sound of repeated notes, the 'lifeless' chords - whereas the more I played and tweaked Pianoteq, the more I enjoyed playing and tweaking it. Then I started visualizing the possibility of creating exactly the right piano sound for every track - and not with EQ and effects but with the tools I would use if I were tuning and voicing a real instrument (and had all the time in the world) - hammer hardness at different strike weights, unison width, octave stretch... and, of course, with possibilites well beyond those of a single instrument - control over instrument length, soundboard response, harmonic character, damping... and I started to get very excited indeed.

Do I think Pianoteq is perfect, and do I prefer it to my real grand pianos? no, obviously not. When possible or practical I will always try to record the real thing first. Do I think the best sample sets going today likely surpass it 'out of the box'? Yes, though I find that they too begin to reveal their weaknesses with close listening. However, given what has already been achieved with this 'first out of the starting gate' version, and assuming the same level of detail and finesse goes into further development of Pianoteq... I cannot really imagine spending a large bundle on a static sampled instrument at this point, no matter how rich and thick and chocolatey it sounds up front, or how many gigabytes and velocity layers and release samples... it would just be too limiting.

In the end, the more I listen to static samples the more plastic and lifeless they sound; so far, the more I dig into Pianoteq the more I like it and see its potential and want to play and tweak and explore it. Kind of like a real instrument.

There, I've said it! Now, go ahead and dismiss my opinion because I don't have enough posts...

[Krakatau]

no...

...welldone Monsieur subtlearts and welcome to KVR...






( ...BTW )

[aMUSEd]

And, quite honestly, they work better for me overall, as a total playing and listening experience, than any sampled piano I have ever played. And that's after an hour or so with the demo. ....
However the more I listened to the Ivory samples, the more its weaknesses stuck out at me - a kind of unrealistic hype in the bass, the static sound of repeated notes, the 'lifeless' chords - whereas the more I played and tweaked Pianoteq, the more I enjoyed playing and tweaking it. Then I started visualizing the possibility of creating exactly the right piano sound for every track - and not with EQ and effects but with the tools I would use if I were tuning and voicing a real instrument (and had all the time in the world) - hammer hardness at different strike weights, unison width, octave stretch... and, of course, with possibilites well beyond those of a single instrument - control over instrument length, soundboard response, harmonic character, damping... and I started to get very excited indeed.

Do I think Pianoteq is perfect, and do I prefer it to my real grand pianos? no, obviously not. When possible or practical I will always try to record the real thing first. Do I think the best sample sets going today likely surpass it 'out of the box'? Yes, though I find that they too begin to reveal their weaknesses with close listening. However, given what has already been achieved with this 'first out of the starting gate' version, and assuming the same level of detail and finesse goes into further development of Pianoteq... I cannot really imagine spending a large bundle on a static sampled instrument at this point, no matter how rich and thick and chocolatey it sounds up front, or how many gigabytes and velocity layers and release samples... it would just be too limiting.

In the end, the more I listen to static samples the more plastic and lifeless they sound; so far, the more I dig into Pianoteq the more I like it and see its potential and want to play and tweak and explore it. Kind of like a real instrument.

There, I've said it! Now, go ahead and dismiss my opinion because I don't have enough posts...

Very useful feedback - great post - couldn't agree more (this is all what I was trying to get across about "feel" and the limitations of sampled instruments to a player even if they "sound" better - at the moment).

[djdorian]

I certainly won't dismiss you, subtlearts!

Very informative, thx.

[NAD]

I still think we need a plug that would send MIDI over the net to a robot sitting at a nice grand piano in an expensive studio miked up with fancy microphones and the audio would get sent back in realtime.

BTW, is Pianoteq the same as that plug that was being hyped up in another thread that was supposed to be made by the 4front guy and used partial sampling?

[Pianoteq]

BTW, is Pianoteq the same as that plug that was being hyped up in another thread that was supposed to be made by the 4front guy and used partial sampling?

No, it is not the same. Pianoteq is a truly modelled piano.

To all Intel Mac users out there: we have now released a universal binary version of Pianoteq, v1.0.2.

Regards,
Niclas Fogwall
Sales & support
Pianoteq
www.pianoteq.com