Reason 3 is simply awesome.

[John Vulich]

Well, my intent wasn't to nitpick over spelling errors but to point out (yet again) how amazed I am that they no longer teach grammar in schools.

BTW, aaastronomer, how old are you?

[Warmonger]

That means it's about time to start taking bets on when the first post mentioning a certain group of socialists will show up.

Thread Nazi.

5 posts and we have a winner!

[AD80]

[FaX]

I do not think Reason is "AWESOME".
It is however an valuable tool in my arsenal that get's regular use.

I agree with the original poster that the REMOTE function is excellent.

However I do feel many people are under evaluating what the Combinator is capable of itself.

I have designed a lot of custom effect combi's that do things alot of better known effects do from within Reason itself.

I have also designed crossfade morphing and vector sampling combiminators and the like also.
In fact I have a custom combi that uses 2 Sub's and 4 Maelstromes that is very capable of pulling off extremely good Vector and Wavesequenced patches.
Yes I can even scan the wave's in a Subtractor in realtime if needs be / or via tempo subdivisions / or via tempo subdivisions + waveshaper for varied wave steps controlled via a depth knob.
All sorts of fancy wavesequenced patches can be achieved this way also.
Something that is nigh on impossible to do in earlier versions of Reason.

Also have used the Malestrom waveshapers in a Combi to trigger banks of patterns in Multiple matrix sequencers that in turn trigger slices in custom rex files with control over waveshaper A & B waveshape , Waveshaper A & B tempo divisions and filter LFO/mappings to each of REX players (which are loaded with custom rex files etc).

I also have autogenerative synthesis combi's that need no midi input what so ever.

It also enables me to layer Subtractors / Maelstroms and NNXT's with full velocity layers / keysplits / key zones and ranges with independent mod matrices (for each instrument in a layer) and global mod matrix for control via the Combi's front panel.
All recordable to a single track of midi data containing note and automation data.

In essence it's allowed or should I say afforded me the opportunity to use Reason much like one would a Korg style rompler with layers . splits , rythmic parts in certain keyzones with pseudo arp triggers , layers and all sorts of other tricks.
All neatly recorded to ONE midi channel with global and individual device parameter automation recordable to that single track.

If I might add the MClass devices are better used as a suite of individual dynamics processing tools rather than simply being lumped together and viewed as a "mastering suite".
You really are selling the devices short if that's all you are viewing them as.

Try using the Maelstrom waveshapers to automate tempo syncronised eq sweeps on specific eq bands within a combi for example whilst feeding a RE-Drum into it's input which is in turn having its patterns autoswitched and automated via a controller knob or the same waveshaper simulataneously.
I can get all sorts of SqPusher / Aphex / Venetian snares kind of Madness out of the Combinator quite easily for example.

However I only USE - Re-Drum / Dr.Rex / NNXT and Maelstrom on their own. I also find the Subtractor is actually a corker of a glacial , cold , digital icemachine and drone box for BOC and Autechre kind of pad layers more than it is a decent emulative analog subtractive synth.
I get better analog styled patches from NNXT with DECENT 3rd party or Custom sample sets myself.

That said Reason isn't perfect.

The sequencer is HORRID IMHO.

I only ever sequence it via my host but I can automate all the individual device parameters and global combinator parameters via LIVE's clip envelopes anyway which gives me superb automation control.]

I NEVER use the old eq's and comps or reverb and will use the delay only in a device chain as the REV7000 infact acts as a better delay device IMHO.

That said between Scream / REV7000 / B512 / MClass Devices (used individual) and spider/cv and audio splitters and mergers I can generate a hell of alot of different efx combinatons that are both felxible and highly expressive.
These can be saved as Effect Combi's for instant recall which can be used as insert standard wet/dry send and return effects via the main mixer.

I don't infact mind Reason being a closed environment as rewire works well for me.

I do feel however it needs a few new devices.
A decent FM synth for starters.
Some sort of Additive synth also.
A better quality Chorus/Flanging module.
Subtractor needs a new filter design or a rejig to some extent thought you can layer a few of them and route the combined signal through a Maelstorm's LPF config with good results .
I find I use other synths for certain tasks where Reason falls short.
Maelstrom needs a RECODE and a Tool like Recycle needs to be Released that allows the end user too design custom graintables for the synth.
It would not hurt either if Reason was Released as 3 versions in 1.

1.Standalone mode
2.Rewire Mode
3,VST mode.

The Reason Rack could be opened as a VSTi in your host instead.
This could enable the Prop's to have both a VSTi and VST mode where by it could be used as an FX device in your host using the devices individually or in customised Combinator FX patches.

You could for example use this directly in your host or within Energy XT for example.

I would also suggest they include in the next version .....

1. A vastly improved sequencer
2. Built in Midi FX modules with midi delays , arps , randomisers , midi harmoniser and midi offest modules.
3.Allow NNXT too open other format sample CD's correctly.
4.Include a built in acidised wavefile player/tracker.


It is by no means a perfect working environment.
I have yet to find one myself.
It does however have it's own sonic imprint and timbre.
This is why I find it useful as it adds to the sonic pallete I already have and provides different sonic hue's to my other tools of choice.

Between it and Reaktor I'm pretty much covered though Dimension Pro adds a usefull range of high quality tones and textures to my rig also.

I do find all three more than enough and I'm pretty frugal on the Reaktor ensemble front keeping only what I absolutely need to get the job done.

I also have certain Combinator Config's that a bit like Bone's Killers are go to prefabs that do certain things very well.
I just need to call up certain patches within the Combinator devices and I've got a signal chain I find highly effective with the flexibilty to do more than one trick sonicly.

I wouldn't choose it as my only tool.
However if push came to shove I could easily use Live + Reason 3 + VST effects only and be more than productive enough if I needed too.


Some of the criticisms here are valid on certain levels.
However Reason is about as SHIT as any other HOST/Music App out there.
It is nothing more or less than a tool in your arsenal of music applications.
It is only as shit or as good as the person using it and the same holds true of Orion , Fruity , E-Xt , Sonar , Cubase etc or X/Y/Z individual VSTi/DXi/Au.

What amazes me is just how passionate people get over their tools of choice.
Personally I can't see the point.
Use whatever floats your boat.
Whilst I've stated why I like using Reason I sure as hell don't have to justify to anyone else why I do.
At the end of the day I use it because I want too .
I do not feel it was a bad financial investment either.
The Combinator now affords me the luxury of cabling together custom patched semi-modular/modular environents that are either synthesis or effect based that can be recalled at will.
I also get CV/GATE inputs etc to each of those Combi's also so they can be further patched and controlled via merger's / splitters / cv's / matrix sequencers and other fancy audio routings also.
For a closed environment it is still rather flexible.
If it isn't a tool of choice for you that's fine.
Some of us still find it highly useful and applicable in day to day studio use.
I must say I do find it's stability and cpu efficiency very attractive features also.
It definately sounds no worse and at times better than other VSTi's I have used in the past.
For ME it's a joy to use.
For other's it is a proverbial pain in the arse.
That is just the way things are.

[Warmonger]

That's an awfully long post considering

What amazes me is just how passionate people get over their tools of choice.

[defjamm]

That's an awfully long post considering

What amazes me is just how passionate people get over their tools of choice.

yeah, i've always expected it to end but it didn't just end.
that was a really nice post btw, very on-topic!

are there other great sites out there like combinatorhq?

oh yeah, reason is 'the shit'

[FaX]

That's an awfully long post considering

What amazes me is just how passionate people get over their tools of choice.

yeah, i've always expected it to end but it didn't just end.
that was a really nice post btw, very on-topic!

are there other great sites out there like combinatorhq?

oh yeah, reason is 'the shit'

Why does this thread just keep going on and on or something ?

[spaceman]

your projecting your demands and needs upon other again..

No I'm not, I'm givng my perspective, just as you and everyone else gives their's.

it's not the opinion per se more the fact that you accompany all your opinions by saying that the ones who don't agree with them are idiots

this has been mentioned many many times before.. not every tool needs to be able to do everything. That's just such a ridiculous notion.

But one that has no expansion mechanism should, don't you think? What if you wanted to use something like a Phase Modulation style synth to nail a particular sound? You can't, so you have to have a propepr host that supports ReWire and then you need to hope that its all going to work properly. Its far more effort that it should be for something which, as Teksonik pointed out, is more expensive than several other hugely capable host applications.

You work with the tools you've got. If you need something else you grab other tools to get to where you want. What's so strange about that. If you're working in Orion and you need to do some serious wave editing on an audio file, you export it and use a wave editor.. are you going to complain Orion doesn't have an advanced wave editor? It's the same amount of effort. If you want to process a sound in Reason with a phase modulator, bounce it, use an other tool and import it again. That's making music, isn't it?

The props have obviously long decided NOT to join the normal sequencing crowd and have instead slowly (especially slowly ) developed Reason towards an instrument, which happens to have sequencing capabilities as well. It was first branded as a virtual studio but it's their damn right to change that if they want.. and they have.

As I said yesterday, I'm pretty sure they realised that they were never going to be able to compete as a virtual studio so its a pretty cynical move on their part.

what's cynical about that? Things change, the world changes, the industry changes. Why is changing a business plan cynical? They knew they couldn't compete (or maybe: they saw a whole in the market they could fill), so they adapted.. and now they're still alive and kicking more than ever. That deserves respect. Most companies go bankrupt because of bad business decisions.. look at all the companies that have gone bust the last few years.

An anyway.. 'virtual studio' does not equal 'full-featured host'.
That's a very loose use of terms you use there.

Why does Reason have to be a full-featured host? If you want one of those use Cubase, Logic, FL, Orion, etc.. no one is forcing anyone to do anything.

Precisely, yet you seem to feel that we should say nice things about Reason even though it falls so far short of our expectations

but BONES, who said it falls short of my expectations? Me saying it's not a full-featured host (like Logic etc.) doesn't mean it falls short. Quite the opposite has happened in practice.. the more I've learned about Reason the more I realise how bloody powerful it is.

And that's the problem I have with you making all those comments.. You don't even know Reason 3. You've said so yourself that you only know Reason 1. Why do you want to pretent you know Reson 3 and you have even the faintest clue how powerful it is, especially AS AN INSTRUMENT (I don't care what you say about their 'cynical' move to turn it from virtual studio to instrument)

given its price and the style of application it is. Yesterday I compared it to the KORG Legacy Collection and I think this is possibly a much fairer comparison and yet I still find the Legay Collection more appealing, simply because I don't have to use it as a stand-alone if I don't want to. A more realistic comparison might be to something like SimSynth 2, in which case Reason might just be slightly ahead. Even FL can be loaded as a VSTi.

If you want an extremely versatile, great sounding modular instrument with sequencing capabilities, look at Reason. If not, well don't be a f**king idiot and don't use it

You left-out "stand-alone" and I think you'll find that is where most people are most disappointed.

but you know that before you buy it, don't you. It's not like you install thedamn thing and go "oh damn, i can't use it in my host". That's why I can make the comparison to something like Tera. You don't buy Tera and then go "oh damn, it can't host vst". You know what the specs are and that should tell you wheteher it's for you or not. IF the specs aren't enough for you then don't buy it but don't go complaining it doesn't have ALL the specs you want.

It's not all about features & cost - it's about what works for you & being mature enough to realise that the world doesn't revolve around you, your needs, likes & dislikes & that different people have different capabilities, strengths, weaknesses & working practices & that they find their creativity blossoms using different tools.

Why would you suppose from what has been written here that anyone thinks you shouldn't use Reason if it works for you? People express their own opinions and through that process we can all learn about different applications that we may not have the time to invest in for ourselves. You shouldn't be reading any of this as "Don't use Reason, use this" but as "I don't use Reason, I use this and this is why I chose this path". Whenever someone writes a reply, its just their opinion, no more or less valid than any other. We shouldn't have to start every sentence with "IMHO", it should be obvious.

again BONES, it's not you expressing your opinions, it's you calling everyone a f**king moron or idiot for using something you dont like

less?!?!?!? that's a statement from someone who has never used Reason the way it should be used. If you don't know Reason 3 then for god's sake, shut the f**k up and go annoy some kids in the street or something

Why would you have to use Reason to know that it doesn't have any relevance to your own workflow? That makes no sense. I can look at the features it has, knowing that I can't load a plug-in to fill any of the huge, gaping holes, and know straight away that it cannot possibly be of any use to me whatsoever. It is sufficently flawed that I don't need to hear a demo tune or download the demo and try it for myself. Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend?

that was a reaction to people saying it's Reason is limiting.

That's a big problem with your reasoning:

you imagine a set of specs
you look at an application which doesn't have all the specs
you go on by saying it's crap because it doesn't have all the specs YOU WANT
you call everyone who does like it's specs idiots

you simply can't imagine that some people like what Reason does. They know the specs, they know the strenghts AND limitations and it suits their particular needs. In my case, I see Reason as a powerful modular instrument, I know it can't host other plugins, I use Logic for other tasks.

so what's the problem with Reason there?

taking 'host' completely out of context by dragging in an other Prop software that's linked using REWIRE!!
I guess that kind of sums up the amazing depth and intellect of the anti-Reason argument so far

Except that ReWire is about as close to a hosting environmeent as a hardware mixer. That and the fact that ReWire is my biggest problem with Reason so it actually bolsters my case.

it only bolsters the case "I want a full host, Reason isn't one". It in no way bolsters your opinion "Reason is crap because it's not a full host". You need to be more careful with your logical constructs BONES

[BONES]

it's not the opinion per se more the fact that you accompany all your opinions by saying that the ones who don't agree with them are idiots

If the suit fits... But don't feel so bad, most people are idiots.

You work with the tools you've got. If you need something else you grab other tools to get to where you want. What's so strange about that. If you're working in Orion and you need to do some serious wave editing on an audio file, you export it and use a wave editor.. are you going to complain Orion doesn't have an advanced wave editor? It's the same amount of effort.

What, right-click, edit, save, continue working? ORION integrates anyone's favourite wave editor as well as it integrates VST plugins.

If you want to process a sound in Reason with a phase modulator, bounce it, use an other tool and import it again. That's making music, isn't it?

Bounce it? I haven't had to bounce anything since I ran out of tracks in an 8-track studio in 1985, not counting my SQD-1 sequencer which only had two tracks so you worked on one then bounced it down to the other when it was right.

Bounce, he-he.

what's cynical about that? Things change, the world changes, the industry changes. Why is changing a business plan cynical?

Its cynical when you do it to avoid being compared to your competitors.

They knew they couldn't compete (or maybe: they saw a whole in the market they could fill), so they adapted..

They didn't adapt, they just changed the spin. If they didn't see it as some kind of studio, why would they have put so much effort into a suite of mastering plug-ins? Its inconsistent, don't you think?

An anyway.. 'virtual studio' does not equal 'full-featured host'. That's a very loose use of terms you use there.

I think its pretty much the accepted terminology around here used to distinguish applications like these from the big sequencers.

but BONES, who said it falls short of my expectations? Me saying it's not a full-featured host (like Logic etc.) doesn't mean it falls short. Quite the opposite has happened in practice.. the more I've learned about Reason the more I realise how bloody powerful it is.

So clearly you have low expectations in several areas, like expandability and integration within the overall process. Or maybe you just have modest needs and nothing better to do with your money? Whatever.

And that's the problem I have with you making all those comments.. You don't even know Reason 3.

Not in the biblical sense, certainly. But I do know enough about to know that it is in no way worth my time to find out any more. It falls at the very first hurdle.

You've said so yourself that you only know Reason 1. Why do you want to pretent you know Reson 3 and you have even the faintest clue how powerful it is, especially AS AN INSTRUMENT (I don't care what you say about their 'cynical' move to turn it from virtual studio to instrument)

I don't care how powerful it is because its a STAND-ALONE INSTRUMENT and it can't easily be integrated into my workflow. If it were the only decent instrument around I might have to reconsider but there are literally thousands of more appealing alternatives. And that's not even considering how absurdly expensive it is compared to the tools I use now. So you're asking me to ignore it complete lack of value for money and its inability to work within my workflow and for what?

but you know that before you buy it, don't you. It's not like you install thedamn thing and go "oh damn, i can't use it in my host". That's why I can make the comparison to something like Tera. You don't buy Tera and then go "oh damn, it can't host vst". You know what the specs are and that should tell you wheteher it's for you or not. IF the specs aren't enough for you then don't buy it but don't go complaining it doesn't have ALL the specs you want.

Which is exactly why I haven't bothered to get into it.

again BONES, it's not you expressing your opinions, it's you calling everyone a f**king moron or idiot for using something you dont like

I just like to call a spade a f**king shovel. Everyone is an idiot, sometimes even me.

That's a big problem with your reasoning:
you imagine a set of specs

I'm not making this shit up, the spec's are there, I just assign them relative importance based on my needs.

you look at an application which doesn't have all the specs
you go on by saying it's crap because it doesn't have all the specs YOU WANT
you call everyone who does like it's specs idiots

Give me some good, sound reasons to think that your opinion might actually be valid. Read teh drivel you've been spouting for page after page, then read what FaX had to say further up the page. Now, don't you think you come off looking like an idiot compared to him?

you simply can't imagine that some people like what Reason does. They know the specs, they know the strenghts AND limitations and it suits their particular needs. In my case, I see Reason as a powerful modular instrument, I know it can't host other plugins, I use Logic for other tasks. so what's the problem with Reason there?

Simple. Or rather not in any way simple. It just makes your whole workflow infinitely more complex than it needs to be. I open one application and from it I can do every, single task that I might need to whilst writing, arranging and producing a complete song. One application for every task. No decisions - should I do it in Reason or maybe it will need vocals so I probably should do it in Logic or I can ReWire it [can you?] and switch from one to the other ad infinitum until its done or I can render it out and load the audio into Logic. but then maybe you don't have to get anything done. Do you have a label? Do they have release schedules and stuff? Do you do live shows?

t in no way bolsters your opinion "Reason is crap because it's not a full host". You need to be more careful with your logical constructs BONES

Where did I say Reason is krap? Propellerheads are krap, Reason is irrelevant.

[headquest]

How come Logic and Cubase can have a relatively peaceful apprecation thread, but Reason can't?

Because Logic and Cubase are Very Clever Programmes with lots of Powerful Features. Very Clever People can have hours of fun with them... without even making music at all!

They also host CPU-guzzling plugins, which make Fantastic Phat Sounds (but which can't actually be used in a mix unless you, erm, filter out all the phatness )

The developers of those programmes respect their users so much that they allow them to pay Lots of Money for the beta versions and test them for months before selling them a patch that will make the software actually work. The mean-spirited Propellerheads though have a stubborn commitment to making their software stable before selling it... how lame!

Cubase is used by clever musicians such as The Scorpions, who can play their guitars Very Fast Indeed. Reason though is used by silly people who can't tell the difference between truth and hype - foolish non-musicians like, well, Jean Michel Jarre and the Black Eyed Peas.

In many years time Reason might develop into a proper adult programme instead of a kids toy. In the meantime, Very Clever People will stick with Very Clever Programmes that have lots of Complex Features that enable them to continue being smug patronising bastrads.

[BONES]

Reason though is used by silly people who can't tell the difference between truth and hype - foolish non-musicians like, well, Jean Michel Jarre and the Black Eyed Peas.

Finally something we can agree on. I was recently able to isolate a Black Eyed Peas song, it was rubbish. Then someone pointed out a couple of others, also rubbish. Doesn't surprise me in the least they use Reason. You could also have slotted Liam Howlett in there for an even broader spread. Trent probably uses it too.

[spaceman]

How come Logic and Cubase can have a relatively peaceful apprecation thread, but Reason can't?

Because Logic and Cubase are Very Clever Programmes with lots of Powerful Features. Very Clever People can have hours of fun with them... without even making music at all!

They also host CPU-guzzling plugins, which make Fantastic Phat Sounds (but which can't actually be used in a mix unless you, erm, filter out all the phatness )

The developers of those programmes respect their users so much that they allow them to pay Lots of Money for the beta versions and test them for months before selling them a patch that will make the software actually work. The mean-spirited Propellerheads though have a stubborn commitment to making their software stable before selling it... how lame!

Cubase is used by clever musicians such as The Scorpions, who can play their guitars Very Fast Indeed. Reason though is used by silly people who can't tell the difference between truth and hype - foolish non-musicians like, well, Jean Michel Jarre and the Black Eyed Peas.

In many years time Reason might develop into a proper adult programme instead of a kids toy. In the meantime, Very Clever People will stick with Very Clever Programmes that have lots of Complex Features that enable them to continue being smug patronising bastrads.

for some reason I think the sarcasm will not be picked up by most people here let it go mate, it's not worth the trouble discussing

[FaX]

Reason though is used by silly people who can't tell the difference between truth and hype - foolish non-musicians like, well, Jean Michel Jarre and the Black Eyed Peas.

Finally something we can agree on. I was recently able to isolate a Black Eyed Peas song, it was rubbish. Then someone pointed out a couple of others, also rubbish. Doesn't surprise me in the least they use Reason. You could also have slotted Liam Howlett in there for an even broader spread. Trent probably uses it too.

Bones,
I appreciate your opinion but claiming the BlackEyedPeas track was shite purely because it used Reason is a cop out.
Liam Howlett's last release would have been just as shit had he used 808's , 909's and a W30 - the fact is he used all his old analog synths + Pro-tools on the last release with Reason filling out other duties.
If I for example choose to use a CZ101 in my music does using a Casio make me instantly shit?
My application and use of the CZ101 is responsible for the shit I may produce not the CZ101 itself.
Using the tool as a justification is plain lame, and you and I both know it.
Using your above logic if you used anything other than Orion everything you produced would be shit.
Shit work is shit work.
Only bad workmen blame the tools at their disposal.
Now stop being deliberately inflamatory.
Flame baiting isn't usually your style.
You may be an opininated f**k but you really should be above all this (buy in large you usually are).
So what gives ?

[spaceman]

Reason though is used by silly people who can't tell the difference between truth and hype - foolish non-musicians like, well, Jean Michel Jarre and the Black Eyed Peas.

Finally something we can agree on. I was recently able to isolate a Black Eyed Peas song, it was rubbish. Then someone pointed out a couple of others, also rubbish. Doesn't surprise me in the least they use Reason. You could also have slotted Liam Howlett in there for an even broader spread. Trent probably uses it too.

and to put this into perspective

From Amazon:

Novakill:

Kill Everyone
Reviews: none
Amazon.com Sales Rank: #222,684

Hard Tech for a Hard World
Reviews: 1

"Novakill is harsh-industrial using distorted vocals. The music is purely electronic...usually with a slow, hard pounding bass-line through most of the songs. Most of the lyrics on Hard Tech For A Hard World tend to be typical for this type of band as well, with futuristic themes about rampant technology, ect. Truthfully, there's really nothing that sets them apart from the more well known bands in the genre, but that could be their key to success. Fans of Suicide Commando, Android Lust, and Decoded Feedback will eat this one up. The only real flaws with the album are the low-quality sound and their tendency to use annoying samples (I'm getting tired of hearing lines from The Matrix already). Ultimately though, this is a decent debut album for the band, and a good choice for industrial/ebm fans looking for something cold and angry."

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #270,874

Albums sold world wide: I don't know, 15?
Awards: I don't know.. 2nd price in an egg eating contest?

Or in other words, 1 in a kazillion other crap hard-industrial wankery bands no one in his right mind gives a second listen


Black Eyed Peas

Monkey Business
Reviews: to many to quote
Amazon.com Sales Rank: #41

Elephunk
Reviews: to many to quote
Amazon.com Sales Rank: #195

Behind the Front
Reviews: to many to quote
Amazon.com Sales Rank: #15,422

Bridging the gap
Amazon.com Sales Rank: #31,445

Albums sold world wide: 7.5 million
Awards: 4 Grammy nominations, 1 Grammy award, etc.

Prodigy

I'll spare you the endless pages of details, reviews, etc.

Albums sold word wide: 15 million
Awards won: shall I not emberras you withthe comparison BONES?


but I guess because YOU don't like it them must be crap/untalented. If you only had 1% of their talent you wouldn't be here trolling like a pathetic little twat. Your music is shit mate and your production skils are non-existing. You probably only sell your records to your family and to skater twats or jobless punk twats with 2 brain cells.. the kind of people you'd be happy to slag off here on kvr

[Cryogenic]

@Cryo: The dozens of people who have been claiming all through the thread that talent lies within their host or synths will sure be embarrassed to know they're wrong. Serves 'em right, says me! *nod*

Oh, wait... nobody made that claim. D'oh! Am I ever stupid sometimes.

Maybe you should pay more attention then, asswipe.