License model no way !!!

[WXLF]

WXLF

YOU CITADED SOMETHING FROM OLD PAGE THAT ABOUT MODULARE OPENING IN VERSION 2.0! This shows they are liers thanks i knew it said thst but they removed it and changed it

viewtopic.php?f=259&t=416097&p=6359011& ... s#p6359011

You're welcome, but I don't understand. Because the quote says...

"In the next major release, anyone with Bitwig Studio will have access to the integrated Modular System, enabling the modification of existing devices, or the creation and design of entirely new ones."

By major release I think they just meant 2.x Not necessarily the "opening".

I know what you mean though, because in my mind I imagined it to be at the initial release of 2.0.

But the good thing is here, "And a little bit down the road, our internal development tool for programming Bitwig Devices will be available to anyone who wants to go down that road."

Hopefully a little bit down the road means sometime soon after the initial release

[Pprimo]

i don't hate the license model. Just the price. 99 EUR would be fine. Also including supporting bug fixes etc to keep the product up and running.

You can say whatever you want, but it is some sort of subscription you offer.

i (and many other producers around me) really want to support your company ongoing as we like the product, but please be reasonable...

thanks for listening.

I agree man 100 USD IS A fair price.........169.00 is too much yearly.

[mevla]

I should have abandoned ship when they introduced touch screen bullcrap, instead of basic functions like fades and crossfades.
At least I could get a good price for it.
Now my licence is basicaly worthless.

You mean, you are not creating using the Bitwig you have ?

[viceverser]

LOL people normalizing companies charging for maintenance updates that were previously granted for your original/upgrade cost,

[PHY6]

I should have abandoned ship when they introduced touch screen bullcrap, instead of basic functions like fades and crossfades.
At least I could get a good price for it.
Now my licence is basicaly worthless.

You mean, you are not creating using the Bitwig you have ?

Not really no.
Had all sorts of problems when projects got really big, (30+ tracks).
Plugin states not saved, routings gone wrong or dissapeared.
Makes me anxious starting something new.

[mosska]

I understand what they are trying to do.. and it's a nice idea because it will help them to grow. And it's cool to get some nice feature in between major updates. However. 159 euro is tough. Make at least 100.

[LooFoX]

Hi guys, coming in the conversation .

Starting with this : I've always been a supporter of Bitwig. Not a fanboy, but I've always root for Bitwig team and defend them against criticisms.

Now how do I took my Bitwig v2 discovery yesterday?

I open my Bitwig mail newsletter seeing version 2, strongly excited by what I'm reading.
Starting to scroll down the Bitwig version 2 announcement webpage, seeing nice features like new modulators (loooooooove modulation) and new and upgraded devices, plus some cool improvements in the UI.

And then I get to the bottom of the webpage and seeing : Bitwig up to 379€ for initial purchase and 159€ for the upgrade.
Finding it a little expensive as Bitwig version 1 was 299€, making the upgrade price more than half the price of version 1.
But hey, why not if it's a one shot for a major upgrade...

Scrolling down a little more to find out about the 12 month plan... And now comes the big disappointment...
I mean... I would have to pay 159€ every year to get all releases. Ok I could get major one with this, but even as a Bitwig's supporter for more than 1 and a half year now, I don't see it getting major features every 6 months...

I decide to take a little time to think about it and come back to the description of what is in version 2.
And here is the great minus for me : there is not a single feature that's giving me some sort of "woooow" effect. No opening of the modulation system to users for creating devices, no collab, no LAN feature and no melodyne integration (they all have been discussed by Bitwig team for the last 3 years).

For me there are problems with this :
- Asking price for an annual plan is too high : 99€ would have been more reasonable.
- Not a single "amazing" feature in the description (well clip fades seems cool and new modulators but it isn't "amazing").
- The competition is just around the corner : Ableton is in the same DAW concepts as Bitwig and will be more than probably revealing Ableton 10 in 2017. And they have been adding "wooow" features for free in version 9 (version 9.5 was incredible...). And if we watch to other companies, FL Studio with his 2 years major upgrades frequency will probably release version 13 this year too.

So yeah, as a result of all this, I'm not tempted to upgrade right now. I will wait to see what other companies will have to offer before making this kind of purchase (yes, 159€ is a lot for a lot of people..). By comparison, I don't know how much Ableton take for upgrades, but I think it's 299€, but Live 9 has been here for 4 years, making it like a 75€ annual payment... Less than half the price asked by Bitwig.

In conclusion, I will stay with Bitwig version 1 for now because, well, I can make music with it without encountering big problems.
And will wait to see how the competition will reveal his next versions, and how Bitwig v2 will evolve in 2017 and perhaps even 2018 if I need to. Hoping that Bitwig will not raise the 159€ price (it stayed on the webpage that this price is not fixed and could be evolving later...).

Too bad because for a 99€ annual payment I would have been sold.

I hope Bitwig's team will prove asap that this annual plan help them grow fast so that I could get my confidence in it back quickly.
The only problem is that if there are lots of people in my case that'll be willing to wait to see what's happening before buying it... Well in that case there won't be too much sales for the upgrade... And so the Bitwig's growth could be difficult without the money necessary to make it possible...

One way or the other, at that asking price, it's "wait and see" for me .

Regards,

LooFoX

[Andrei Marchenko]

Some math for Bitwig's customers:

When was the end for Bitwig special Black Friday offer? Exactly - before December 10th, 2016. This 10th December dateline has been placed to catch a load of people who were incentivised to buy it by the promo offer. Also (as a normal software company) they have a database containing registration dates of license keys, so they can see a spike of registrations just before the 10th of December. That's why "The upgrade is free for anyone who purchased Bitwig Studio 1 on, or after, December 10th, 2016."

Are you really think that they can't count? You know what is critical mass? When you start to sell something it's called - Business! Let me tell you something...

After official release of 2.0 and i guess in next two or three months they will count critical mass of buyers and will build poitics of updates directly from this number. Why? Because when 12 month subscription for critical mass will be over they will release new major features to make you buy subscription again. Are you really think that they so stupid to include all major features about what you all asked here since April 2014 in free update? Are you think that fades/crossfades that make a huge point for mass was included in 2.0 just by accident? Are you really think that Modular Environment and Online Collaboration features will be released in first 12 month for critical mass of 2.0 buyers? Sorry but if yes you're just out of minds.

From other forum:

"Pretty sure the bitwig dev's are in serious financial troubles. This annual upgrade price is a slap in the face of the early adopters, which is the reason why bitwig survived in the first place." (c)

[dom@bitwig]

No that's wrong - but you're free to express your point of view or any constructive criticism.
But please edit your posts and don't call any users puppies and offending them, or i'm afraid i have to block your forum account.

Thanks a lot, Andrey!
Cheers,
Dom

edit: Fanboys instead of puppies does not help here... why the aggression? You want to force your account being blocked?

[nbot]

No that's wrong - but you're free to express you point of view or any constructive criticism.
But please edit your posts and don't call any users puppies and offending them, or i'm afraid i have to block your forum account.

Thanks a lot, Andrey!
Cheers,
Dom

You just confirmed Andrey is right

But seriously - read what people are writing here. Maybe there's some middle ground for both the company and users.

[dom@bitwig]

Nah, that's no confirmation, i'm not Trump

And be assured we read what users are writing here. We knew it would let to confusion and maybe even to concerns and we take it seriously. And we think we can proof that this is the better model, else we would not have done the change.

Cheers,
Dom

[NothanUmber]

i don't hate the license model. Just the price. 99 EUR would be fine. Also including supporting bug fixes etc to keep the product up and running.

You can say whatever you want, but it is some sort of subscription you offer.

i (and many other producers around me) really want to support your company ongoing as we like the product, but please be reasonable...

thanks for listening.

In the same boat. Think the license model is even favourable to the users (new features are available as they come, you get the features you chose to pay for and some surprise features extra. And if they released a new major version every year we also wouldn't get more bug fixes "for free" as now).

But the price is imho too steep to retain it continuously. If they manage to get in at least a few good features I can use per year then I would pay < 100 € for that service and to support the endeavor.
But for 160 € I would only upgrade for very important new features. E.g. I would likely skip the initial 2.0 version and only jump on train as soon as the full modular environment is unlocked and MPE is fuly supported for VST plugins. Then I have no idea what the next big feature would be where I jump in. Could be that I skip the next five years.
Imho Bitwig would make more money if they would decrease the upgrade cost to e.g. 99$|€ incl VAT for another year. Then I think more people would continuously keep paying to get the latest and greatest features - even if those are not "must haves".

Edit: Perhaps a compromise could be something like the Jetbrains people do it: There could be a significant discount if you keep your subscription continuously. So it could be 160 € if you choose to let your subscription lapse and jump in only on the features you want but only 100 € if you continue to keep your subscription going. So if new good features come out regularly people would be better of staying on track. And people who have all the features they want can still let the subscription lapse and jump on board later on again if they see something new they want.

[viceverser]

My own quote from another post on similar topic...

I was delighted to see them implementing their internal package manager... I was convinced they were going to monetise their package service, and allow people to share devices for profit, and take a little off the top of each package sales... Like an app store inside the software. I could see how they were setting up the future of a new revenue stream that didn't rely on old Gauging trends of the dinosaurs that came before them. Soften the buy in price, but build an eco system for creative professionals... Where controller scripts (Moss should be paid for his efforts), Sounds, Devices... WHATEVER could be shared. BUT if you didn't have the money to pay for them, you could still buy the software reasonably and build it yourself, and possibly have something to share yourself.

I could see the genius of their foundations so clear it was amazing... Then they just... sigh!

I'm actually upset by this news, as I was from waves when they did it, I abandoned over 2 thousand dollars worth of plugins, and replaced them all with companies who respect my business... And am left with the same situation, accept the loss and find alternatives.

Please see the error of your ways and do better... You need an innovative business model to match your innovative software.
This is a move in the opposite direction of everything you originally stood for.

I'm not trying to be entitled (as so any of the 'believers' would say), I can only speak my truth here. I'm not threatening, or intentionally insulting anyone in any way... I just want to be heard, and know that they are aware of why, before I step away from this software path.

I would say I wish them the best of luck, but truth be told, I'm hoping this business decision yields spectacular problems quickly, before I get too invested in going elsewhere, so that they can try to right the ship and I can get back on board ASAP.
I don't want to have to go looking elsewhere, but this is the wrong trend to be supporting.

P.S... If anyone is interested, My badge is number 12... I was at the shop in Sydney first morning of release... And have been here ever since... If loyalty counts for anything, I thought I'd put it out there.

[sisarii]

Nah, that's no confirmation, i'm not Trump

And be assured we read what users are writing here. We knew it would let to confusion and maybe even to concerns and we take it seriously. And we think we can proof that this is the better model, else we would not have done the change.

Cheers,
Dom

Try answering to some people having legit concerns then like the poster above me. People that supported you from the early days (I am one of them but not a badge holder). You are charging double per year than anyone else in the industry does! Companies with 2 decade old software, vastly more mature than bitwig do not dare to do that. And now you have people that fiercely supported bitwig caving in, its evident in all sorts of social media, check your fb/twitter/reddit bws sub comment section! 70% of the user base is completely alienated either by the decision to go 12 month support model or the insane price people will have tou cough up in order to stay up to date every year.

You are completely out of touch with the community that supported you to get at this point, disregard any critics that provide sound logic behind their posts and instead you are passing time answering to offensive trolls since yesterday. There is a flood of constructive critiscism from people that deeply care about your company. Try giving them some time and explain things. And yes we all know and are not confused of the nature of the license this is not the issue at this point..

[Coockie1176ln]

also please explain why it says that email support is included with 12 month upgrade plan. Dont people who arent subscribing get email support?

I made a post about this more indepth.
viewtopic.php?f=259&t=477218