>>the sheild sheilds and the second negative carries the ground signal to complete the signal.
Nope. If the second conductor was connected to ground, how could it also carry a signal? Shield = ground in both balance & unbalanced. In a balanced system the 2 conductors carry signals of equal magnitude but opposite polarity.
Guitar players, The soundclick MP3 demo page got updated !
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
Squonk wrote:>>the sheild sheilds and the second negative carries the ground signal to complete the signal.
Nope. If the second conductor was connected to ground, how could it also carry a signal? Shield = ground in both balance & unbalanced. In a balanced system the 2 conductors carry signals of equal magnitude but opposite polarity.
yes the sheild still grounds, I mean it has to...but it is used to sheild the other twoA balanced audio connection has three wires. Two of these are used for the signal, with one of inverted polarity to the other. (For instance, in an XLR connector, pin 2 carries the signal with normal polarity, and pin 3 carries an upside-down version of the same signal.) The third wire is a ground and is used to shield the other two
Last edited by Hink on Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRian
- 1440 posts since 16 Jul, 2003 from Zwollywood, The Netherlands (Europe)
Balanced; two signals, but both out of phase, plus a ground.
At the receiving end of the cable (inside the instrument), the signals are substracted, so the noise each wire picked up is summed to zero, but the signal strength is doubled!
(S + noise) on wire 1, (-S + noise) on wire 2.
substract it; (S + noise) - (-S + noise) = 2xS + 0 noise
About the DI, a DI is mostly for making an unbalanced signal into balanced, and for impedance matching.
I'm not so sure about the groundloop; you must have an DI that has a 'ground lift', I'm not sure all DI's have that.
The common device for preventing groundloops is not a DI, it's a groundlifter. But I guess it wouldn't be wrong to use a DI for preventing groundloops.
So anyway, thanks for all the insights you gave me about using GTR and a hardware amp and stuff.
Now it's time for MidiWorks to come in and give some nice news about his SIM
At the receiving end of the cable (inside the instrument), the signals are substracted, so the noise each wire picked up is summed to zero, but the signal strength is doubled!
(S + noise) on wire 1, (-S + noise) on wire 2.
substract it; (S + noise) - (-S + noise) = 2xS + 0 noise
About the DI, a DI is mostly for making an unbalanced signal into balanced, and for impedance matching.
I'm not so sure about the groundloop; you must have an DI that has a 'ground lift', I'm not sure all DI's have that.
The common device for preventing groundloops is not a DI, it's a groundlifter. But I guess it wouldn't be wrong to use a DI for preventing groundloops.
So anyway, thanks for all the insights you gave me about using GTR and a hardware amp and stuff.
Now it's time for MidiWorks to come in and give some nice news about his SIM
-- Regards MrM --
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
which is not summing the hot...(not for your benefit, it's clear you understand that)...MrM wrote:Balanced; two signals, but both out of phase, plus a ground.
At the receiving end of the cable (inside the instrument), the signals are substracted, so the noise each wire picked up is summed to zero, but the signal strength is doubled!
(S + noise) on wire 1, (-S + noise) on wire 2.
substract it; (S + noise) - (-S + noise) = 2xS + 0 noise
A DI though is more about impedance matchimg, not as much making a unbalanced signal balanced, though it could be used for that as well (why I said earlier, note I did not say the other way)About the DI, a DI is mostly for making an unbalanced signal into balanced, and for impedance matching.
I don't have a DI, I really have no use for one. My card has both hi an lowz. But the Radial does have a groundlift I believe (just as a matter of interest)I'm not so sure about the groundloop; you must have an DI that has a 'ground lift', I'm not sure all DI's have that.
That's not what I said, I said balanced cables (when balanced ins/outs are present) do help prevent grondloops and wikipedia seems to agree with me...The common device for preventing groundloops is not a DI, it's a groundlifter. But I guess it wouldn't be wrong to use a DI for preventing groundloops.
not sure if that's sarcasm or not...maybe I just do not know enough about guitarsSo anyway, thanks for all the insights you gave me about using GTR and a hardware amp and stuff.
He may wish this thread would go awayNow it's time for MidiWorks to come in and give some nice news about his SIM
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
You are sending 2 signals which are out of phase. When they reach the destination, the receiver (not the cable itself) puts them back in-phase, thereby completing the balanced signal transmission. MrM's description was bang-on, and it IS adding the two waveforms together, both of which are hot. That's why there are 3 conductors-- 2 hot plus the signal return (ie. ground). I don't know if "summing" is the right term, but--
When you have two identical signals put in phase with one another, you know what happens, right?
Wikipedia is almost as bad as Harmony Central these days, for reliability of information-- I haven't had a chance to read the actual article yet, but I would never use Wikipedia as a "reliable source".
Balanced cables and unbalanced cables both have a ground. I don't see how they can prevent ground loops, though of course the nature of the balanced signal means that noise generated by a ground loop is subtracted.
Greg
When you have two identical signals put in phase with one another, you know what happens, right?
Wikipedia is almost as bad as Harmony Central these days, for reliability of information-- I haven't had a chance to read the actual article yet, but I would never use Wikipedia as a "reliable source".
Balanced cables and unbalanced cables both have a ground. I don't see how they can prevent ground loops, though of course the nature of the balanced signal means that noise generated by a ground loop is subtracted.
Greg
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
sorry Greg, take a balanced cable and unbalanced cable...put one right and one left...there should be no increase in amplitude. My first post to was not wikipedia it was http://www.dilettantesdictionary.com/index.php?let=aLunch Money wrote:You are sending 2 signals which are out of phase. When they reach the destination, the receiver (not the cable itself) puts them back in-phase, thereby completing the balanced signal transmission.
When you have two identical signals in phase with one another, you know what happens, right?
Wikipedia is almost as bad as Harmony Central these days, for reliability of information-- I haven't had a chance to read the actual article yet, but I would never use Wikipedia as a "reliable source".
Greg
FWIW POD xt live does not use balanced outs...why?
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Lots of audio gear will not use balanced ins or outs. Hell, my audiophile 2496, a "semi-pro" card (especially when it first came out, though it's long in the tooth now) uses unbalanced.
If you use a balanced cable from an unbalanced source, you're not sending a balanced signal. Of course there will be no difference in amplitude. You're thinking about it the wrong way. It's not about the cable, but about the entire signal path. If you send *2* signals, and put them in-phase, you will have an increase in amplitude. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but it seems to me that this is common knowledge.
Greg
If you use a balanced cable from an unbalanced source, you're not sending a balanced signal.
Of course there will be no difference in amplitude. You're thinking about it the wrong way. It's not about the cable, but about the entire signal path. If you send *2* signals, and put them in-phase, you will have an increase in amplitude. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but it seems to me that this is common knowledge.Greg
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
I think we're talking about two different things here...and I really do not feel like arguing about it...but the reason that the POD and your soundcard do not have balanced connecters is simply because they do not need them.Lunch Money wrote:Lots of audio gear will not use balanced ins or outs. Hell, my audiophile 2496, a "semi-pro" card (especially when it first came out, though it's long in the tooth now) uses unbalanced.
If you use a balanced cable from an unbalanced source, you're not sending a balanced signal.
Greg
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Surely. My main point in entering the debate had nothing to do with signal strength anyhow... to be honest, I'm not 100% sure my information there is correct. But what I DO know is this, which was the original point of the debate:
- balanced signals are about noise rejection, not ground loop resolution
- ground loops can be caused with either balanced or unbalanced cables, and I don't see how a balanced cable can be used to resolve them, except in terms of the aforementioned noise rejection
People are slaves to balanced cables, but in most situations (esp. in a home studio), and entirely balanced signal path won't give you any noticeable benefit over an unbalanced one.
Greg
- balanced signals are about noise rejection, not ground loop resolution
- ground loops can be caused with either balanced or unbalanced cables, and I don't see how a balanced cable can be used to resolve them, except in terms of the aforementioned noise rejection
People are slaves to balanced cables, but in most situations (esp. in a home studio), and entirely balanced signal path won't give you any noticeable benefit over an unbalanced one.
Greg
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- KVRist
- 333 posts since 18 Aug, 2004
>>FWIW POD xt live does not use balanced out
But the POD xt Pro does, and so does the POD 2.0.
Greg,
Thing I'm not sure about is that when the mono signal is made into a balanced signal is each phase halved?
*goes off to check*
But the POD xt Pro does, and so does the POD 2.0.
Greg,
Thing I'm not sure about is that when the mono signal is made into a balanced signal is each phase halved?
*goes off to check*
Trying to change the world by posting on a forum is like crying on the Sun to put it out.
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- KVRian
- 1440 posts since 16 Jul, 2003 from Zwollywood, The Netherlands (Europe)
@Hink; I wasn't replying to you specifically. I was just sharing my wisdom as all (former) teachers do
So once more about DI; on a stage, or in a studio, a DI is used to make a unbalanced signal into an balanced one.
On stage this is very important, because the cables there are long, and likely to pick up EMI (unwanted and unmusical noise).
I've used DI to connect acoustic guitars (with piezo elements and so), keyboards, and sometimes DJ Mixers (in case the equipment had no XLR).
Why does some equipment have no XLR (balanced cable)?
Because it is supposed to be used with short cables.
Only mics are know to almost exclusively use XLR's because there level is so low, and therefor the impact of the EMI is far stronger then with line level equipment.
How about level, is the level of a signal stronger when using an XLR?
You use one source, say a guitar. You use two situations; first GTR with balanced cable, and later the same GTR but now with an unbalanced cable.
In both cases, the signal strength will be the same at the end of the cable; XLR doesn't magically amplify the signal.
In fact, if you take resistance into consideration, XLR has two wires thus reducing the resistance, so it will give a better signal transfer, but in the above situation I ignored level loss due to wire resistance.
He, I'm a teacher; I always use models to tell you the truth!
So once more about DI; on a stage, or in a studio, a DI is used to make a unbalanced signal into an balanced one.
On stage this is very important, because the cables there are long, and likely to pick up EMI (unwanted and unmusical noise).
I've used DI to connect acoustic guitars (with piezo elements and so), keyboards, and sometimes DJ Mixers (in case the equipment had no XLR).
Why does some equipment have no XLR (balanced cable)?
Because it is supposed to be used with short cables.
Only mics are know to almost exclusively use XLR's because there level is so low, and therefor the impact of the EMI is far stronger then with line level equipment.
How about level, is the level of a signal stronger when using an XLR?
You use one source, say a guitar. You use two situations; first GTR with balanced cable, and later the same GTR but now with an unbalanced cable.
In both cases, the signal strength will be the same at the end of the cable; XLR doesn't magically amplify the signal.
In fact, if you take resistance into consideration, XLR has two wires thus reducing the resistance, so it will give a better signal transfer, but in the above situation I ignored level loss due to wire resistance.
He, I'm a teacher; I always use models to tell you the truth!
-- Regards MrM --
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
And you just turned it into a gem. I don't know why people bother adding their unrelated $0.02 about whether they find an argument fascinating or not.
As for me, I am GLAD to be learning these things, and therefore I DO find it interesting. Without similar debates, I wouldn't have once upon a time discovered the huge importance of impedance-matching for guitar signals. I always wondered why using sims sounded so lifeless when going into my non-Hi-Z-accepting mixer....
Greg
I don't know why people bother adding their unrelated $0.02 about whether they find an argument fascinating or not.As for me, I am GLAD to be learning these things, and therefore I DO find it interesting. Without similar debates, I wouldn't have once upon a time discovered the huge importance of impedance-matching for guitar signals. I always wondered why using sims sounded so lifeless when going into my non-Hi-Z-accepting mixer....
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 25030 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
warren wrote:This may not be the 'World's Most Boring Argument Ever in the History of the Planet'... but damn, it's gotta be high up on that list.
In the top ten, for sure.
yup - found myself skipping all posts for two or three pages now...
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- KVRAF
- 25030 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
perhaps because it can be a relief to find out and to express that there are way bigger nerds in the world than oneself...Lunch Money wrote: I don't know why people bother adding their unrelated $0.02 about whether they find an argument fascinating or not.
(I bet above sentence isn't gramatically correct by at least a dozen miles but atm I just can't seem to get it right
)