u-he

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:24 pm

jme-audio wrote: I want an overall improved Zebra - so with better flexibility too.

On that we agree

jme-audio · Post by **jme-audio** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:41 pm

pdxindy wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:
pdxindy wrote:For one thing, the list of modulators is already quite long. On my screen, maybe after 10 or so more, the list will not fit on my screen and will need to scroll... that gets annoying on other synths.
Cue submenus, like the one that modmatrix has.
They are also a bit slower, and bit more prone to mouse miscues... obviously better than an endlessly long list...

PopupGridMenu (2 dimensional menu).

Probably native menus have to be replaced anyway for the Z3 iOS / Android version^^

Maybe this would also open the door for variable height (-> variable amount of visible modules).
Currently Z2 uses just 57% of my screen height (I have a 1920x1080 screen and don't use zoom).

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:10 pm

jme-audio wrote:Probably native menus have to be replaced anyway for the Z3 iOS / Android version^^

I sure hope that never happens...

david.beholder · Post by **david.beholder** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:28 pm

pdxindy wrote:
jme-audio wrote:Probably native menus have to be replaced anyway for the Z3 iOS / Android version^^
I sure hope that never happens...

Why not, if projected sales gonna worth development?

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:37 pm

david.beholder wrote:
pdxindy wrote:
jme-audio wrote:Probably native menus have to be replaced anyway for the Z3 iOS / Android version^^
I sure hope that never happens...
Why not, if projected sales gonna worth development?

From a personal perspective, I do not want even 5 minutes 'wasted' on the platform that could go to developing cool stuff for me.

Cinebient · Post by **Cinebient** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:24 pm

pdxindy wrote:
jme-audio wrote:Probably native menus have to be replaced anyway for the Z3 iOS / Android version^^
I sure hope that never happens...

We will see in some years

david.beholder · Post by **david.beholder** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:01 pm

pdxindy wrote:From a personal perspective, I do not want even 5 minutes 'wasted' on the platform that could go to developing cool stuff for me.

Snobism and elitism may have way better applications than this

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:05 am

david.beholder wrote:
pdxindy wrote:From a personal perspective, I do not want even 5 minutes 'wasted' on the platform that could go to developing cool stuff for me.
Snobism and elitism may have way better applications than this

Hey... that is not snobbish or elitist... it is simple self interest...

spektralisk · Post by **spektralisk** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:32 am

Speaking of modulators I often wonder why there is no such thing as universal modulator, what's the reason for it? One shot LFO is like simple envelope and repeating envelope/mseg is like an LFO of custom shape. Why not make one modulator that can change its type/behavior and is not only limited to lfo and envelope but includes other exotic modulation types as well. Obvious benefit I see is that you can quickly change type of modulator that is assigned to multiple targets. You could quickly experiment with how different modulators affect the sound. I think this could be done in a clever so without making gui confusing. Color coding could be useful to indicate what type of modulator is currently assigned to certain target. Anyway just throwing some free ideas here. I don't know Zebra that well yet (bought it recently) so maybe there is something I'm not aware of or maybe this would be problematic from implementation point of view. Let me know what you think.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:44 pm

spektralisk wrote:universal modulator

There's pretty much always the problem that multi-functionality makes things more complicated for one task than something that is optimized for that task. So if you don't need to switch, you're better off with the dedicated type of module.

However, the function generators I mentioned a few times are such hybrids. They act as envelope, LFO, lag generator and what not. They are however utterly simple in itself, and changing role can be part of the sound design. You'll see

spektralisk · Post by **spektralisk** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:53 pm

Urs wrote:However, the function generators I mentioned a few times are such hybrids. They act as envelope, LFO, lag generator and what not. They are however utterly simple in itself, and changing role can be part of the sound design. You'll see

Really nice to hear that! Looking forward to it

jme-audio · Post by **jme-audio** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:59 pm

spektralisk wrote:why there is no such thing as universal modulator, what's the reason for it?

Do you know of one or two reference plugins that have a good implemenation of this? I would like to see how it feels to work with it in practice.

experimental.crow · Post by **experimental.crow** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:10 pm

a really good modulator takes about 2000 years to develop ...

spektralisk · Post by **spektralisk** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:21 pm

jme-audio wrote: Do you know of one or two reference plugins that have a good implemenation of this? I would like to see how it feels to work with it in practice.

Only one comes to my mind - MPowerSynth by MeldaProduction. You can change the type of modulator that can be assigned to different modulation targets. Is that a good implementation? Check and judge by yourself. Works for me but I know many people don't like Melda guis and find them confusing/hard to work with. I think it's matter of getting used to it. Generally modulation there is pretty powerful (can do crazy things like changing multisegment envelopes curvature and moving envelope nodes) but that comes with a price of gui complexity.

jme-audio · Post by **jme-audio** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:57 pm

Thanks, I'll take a look. Just went to their website which says "MPowerSynth is an extremely versatile synthesizer featuring the best sounding oscillators on the market". LOL!
Now I got the installer, which asks me which I want to install from a list of 96 plugins...
The Synth itself makes use of multiple windows. That is quite unusual (still objectively it is a good GUI).
So then I have tried the modulators and I am going to describe them.

A modulator is switchable between "Normal" (LFO), "Envelope" or "Random".

"Normal" can act in two modes:

Mode 1: the sum of
- a parametric waveform (morphing)
- a user drawable waveform
- a step sequencer (similar to the Performer of Massive)

Mode 2: Additive waveform (32 - 256 partials)

"Envelope" can act in parametric or in user definable mode:

Parametric Mode: in the form Delay-Attack-Hold-Decay-Sustain-Tremolo-Release with
adjustable curves each (Tremolo is an LFO exactly as the "Normal"-Mode)

User Definable Mode: drawable (MSEG), also with a Tremolo-LFO

"Random":
A Noise Generator with modes Steps and Smooth...

Conclusion:
We have seen this kind of switching between types already in Massive where it works well, and because of this, it is not so special then. The LFO is very powerful but it's complexity is distributed over multiple sub windows (why on earth?). Same with the envelope. Having an LFO for the sustain stage inside the envelope is very useful, but this was also available in other synths like Massive. I think unique is the approach to have an additive LFO wave editor, which can be used to create some very interesting modulation shapes. Also unique is the overall complexity (f.e. by nesting the already complex "Normal"-Mode into the "Envelope", which is imo too much). Happy to uninstall it now, but it has some good ideas here and there.

Please note, that this is not meant as an argument for or against the universal modulator idea. Just was interested about its implementation in MPowerSynth and wanted to share my short experience with it.

u-he

KVR Audio

Zebra3 Info