SONAR X2 first look

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

I just really, really, REALLY wish they would add a modular MIDI and audio patching view. Or at least improve the channel routing so that any channel can be sent to any other channel, including feedback loops. As it stands now, there is no way for me to properly use Silent Way without going to another DAW first to calibrate. More and more, I find myself just staying in that other DAW because it does everything I really need.

Seriously, Cakewalk, you have to know that your routing system is severely lacking.

Couldn't agree more. This is my biggest issue with Sonar at the moment. The routing is absolutely Draconian I comparison to other DAWs.

[LawrenceF]

Breverb sounds pretty good to me. Getting a really nice reverb that sells for $200 standalone in your DAW of choice certainly takes a good bit of the "bite" out of the retail or upgrade price.

That seems to be the general path that Cake and Steiny and Samp and Apple and Presonus are taking to various degrees of success... giving more and more bang for the buck.

Nice.

[Brandon Ryan]

I just really, really, REALLY wish they would add a modular MIDI and audio patching view. Or at least improve the channel routing so that any channel can be sent to any other channel, including feedback loops. As it stands now, there is no way for me to properly use Silent Way without going to another DAW first to calibrate. More and more, I find myself just staying in that other DAW because it does everything I really need.

Seriously, Cakewalk, you have to know that your routing system is severely lacking.

Couldn't agree more. This is my biggest issue with Sonar at the moment. The routing is absolutely Draconian I comparison to other DAWs.

Any track, bus, or aux can be freely routed to any other bus or physical output of which you can have an unlimited number. Does this qualify as Draconian? Complex multiple levels of parallel compression schemes can be achieved for instance. Now it's perfectly possible that I don't personally perform routing schemes that others might consider complex, but what is it you can't do, other than routing a bus to a track (fast bounce is quicker FWIW)or allowing feedback loops (which I admit might be nice in (IMHO) relatively rare circumstances)?

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

I just really, really, REALLY wish they would add a modular MIDI and audio patching view. Or at least improve the channel routing so that any channel can be sent to any other channel, including feedback loops. As it stands now, there is no way for me to properly use Silent Way without going to another DAW first to calibrate. More and more, I find myself just staying in that other DAW because it does everything I really need.

Seriously, Cakewalk, you have to know that your routing system is severely lacking.

Couldn't agree more. This is my biggest issue with Sonar at the moment. The routing is absolutely Draconian I comparison to other DAWs.

Any track, bus, or aux can be freely routed to any other bus or physical output of which you can have an unlimited number. Does this qualify as Draconian? Complex multiple levels of parallel compression schemes can be achieved for instance. Now it's perfectly possible that I don't personally perform routing schemes that others might consider complex, but what is it you can't do, other than routing a bus to a track (fast bounce is quicker FWIW)or allowing feedback loops (which I admit might be nice in (IMHO) relatively rare circumstances)?

Brandon, can I route a VSTi output to an audio input of a track and record the VSTi output on a new audio track in realtime? As far as I know, this can't be done in Sonar. I'd have to stop and bounce. And that's just a basic example (we're not talking about routing tracks to multiple tracks then back to create feedback loops or anything).

Speaking of bouncing, why do multi-output VSTi's bounce each track individually versus at once? If I have 12 BFD2 tracks I'm trying freeze to audio, Sonar does 12 unique bounces rather than just doing all 12 in a single pass. This takes way too much time, and screws up multi-out VST's with velocity randomization or round robin samples. But the main draw: think of how much faster this would be (or again, if I could just record the VSTi output to a new track, I could also do it quickly).

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Brandon, as an FYI -

On top of better routing, which I think should be the next thing on the menu, other things I'd like to see in Sonar are:

1. Pro Tools session import: Not just the OMF files, the actual PT session files - if legal. I just need clip start/end times, fades, volume, and pan positions.
2. Notation updates: Please just license a Notion "lite" or something to replace the Staff View - it would probably be cheaper and easier than updating the existing staff view.
3. Varispeed audio: A la Reaper. Lots of uses here from tuning to overdubbing hard to sing harmonies, etc.
4. Effect Navigation: Allow me to navigate from effect to effect from a single open effect's plugin menu bar like Logic does. Example: Track 1 has a Comp, EQ, and Delay, I can have the Compressor open and from a pulldown menu on the GUI, jump right to the delay
5. No more MIDI tracks: Combine the separate MIDI and audio tracks for VSTi's into a "non-Simple Instrument Track" - This should let me add MIDI and audio effects, use the arpeg, change volume/pan, etc. This should be the only option for non-multi-out VSTi's.
6. Wet/Dry knobs: A la Reaper - add a single wet/dry knob to the plugin menu for all effects
7. A smaller mixer: I just got the X1 upgrade from 8.5 (there was a lot of workflow enhancements I liked in the X2 webinar), but I can't get used to how big the mixer now appears to be. I guess I could get used to the narrow strip method, but it's bad use of real estate IMO. Looks nice, but just too big.

[JoseC.]

Brandon, can I route a VSTi output to an audio input of a track and record the VSTi output on a new audio track in realtime? As far as I know, this can't be done in Sonar. I'd have to stop and bounce. And that's just a basic example (we're not talking about routing tracks to multiple tracks then back to create feedback loops or anything).

I have the feeling that unlimited routing flexibility comes to a cost, and it is sync. It happens with Live, which is my other preferred app, and it is a problem aknowledged by the Abes. As things get complicated, delay compensation become difficult and automation stops behaving as it should. Things start going slightly out of sync and clarity of sound goes to hell, not to speak what this makes with midi jitter. I do not need feedback loops, I need sync, because good sync is the foundation of music. I still find Sonar the best app in this area by far.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Brandon, can I route a VSTi output to an audio input of a track and record the VSTi output on a new audio track in realtime? As far as I know, this can't be done in Sonar. I'd have to stop and bounce. And that's just a basic example (we're not talking about routing tracks to multiple tracks then back to create feedback loops or anything).

I have the feeling that unlimited routing flexibility comes to a cost, and it is sync. It happens with Live, which is my other preferred app, and it is a problem aknowledged by the Abes. As things get complicated, delay compensation become difficult and automation stops behaving as it should. Things start going slightly out of sync and clarity of sound goes to hell, not to speak what this makes with midi jitter. I do not need feedback loops, I need sync, because good sync is the foundation of music. I still find Sonar the best app in this area by far.

Understood. But surely we can have basic VSTi out to audio track input routing with PDC? Again, I feel that's a pretty basic thing to ask for in a DAW, and Sonar can't do it.

[JoseC.]

Video Summary: Cakewalk took a lot of good ideas that have been around in other DAWs for years (StudioOne, Ableton, FLStudio) and put them into Sonar X. Suddenly Sonar is competitive again.

Will cakewalk ever not be a me-too company?

You mistake features with technology. You also seem to ignore the fact that Cakewalk already existed decades before those "other DAWs" you mention. Cakewalk has been competitive for years, if it weren't it would have gone out of business long ago. They have good new products out like clockwork, and they have a large and faithful customer base. OTOH I am a bit worried about Ableton's future...

[JoseC.]

Understood. But surely we can have basic VSTi out to audio track input routing with PDC? Again, I feel that's a pretty basic thing to ask for in a DAW, and Sonar can't do it.

Maybe it is not that basic, I don't know. It would be handy to have that, but somehow I have the feeling that maybe things are not that simple. If they were, they would have implemented that already. I have that sorted out through my soundcard mixer, I have a DAW output internally patched to a Sonar ASIO input. The resulting track gets recorded a bit behind and I have to align it afterwards, but the solution works fine for me. Thing is, I do not really use it that much, bouncing the track is 99% of the times good enough for me, and I don't see that this is a much demande feature in Sonar's user forums. OTOH, in Live I cannot even bounce a clip in place, I need first to freeze the track and then "flatten" it. What I mean with this is that "basic" seems to mean different things from one DAW to the other.

[satYatunes]

Brandon, can I route a VSTi output to an audio input of a track and record the VSTi output on a new audio track in realtime? As far as I know, this can't be done in Sonar. I'd have to stop and bounce. And that's just a basic example (we're not talking about routing tracks to multiple tracks then back to create feedback loops or anything).

Simple routing as you mentioned would be great. As a workaround I select the audible bounce and live input option on track bounce window, then it records everything that I do during track bounce.

Video Summary: Cakewalk took a lot of good ideas that have been around in other DAWs for years (StudioOne, Ableton, FLStudio) and put them into Sonar X. Suddenly Sonar is competitive again.

Will cakewalk ever not be a me-too company?

I would be the most happiest person on earth, if they copy every good thing from every other DAW and make it more stable for example, Reaper's routing to start with.

[hibidy]

If it works as well as the video I'd be ecstatic.

edit (it doesn't)

[Seth [Cakewalk]]

Brandon, as an FYI -

On top of better routing, which I think should be the next thing on the menu, other things I'd like to see in Sonar are:

5. No more MIDI tracks: Combine the separate MIDI and audio tracks for VSTi's into a "non-Simple Instrument Track" - This should let me add MIDI and audio effects, use the arpeg, change volume/pan, etc. This should be the only option for non-multi-out VSTi's.

In case you weren't aware, SONAR already has Instrument tracks which allow access to everything listed above (arp, audio FX, MIDI fx, etc.). Use the Inspector's Audio and MIDI tabs to access the audio and MIDI layers of the Instrument track.

SP

[Seth [Cakewalk]]

If it works as well as the video I'd be ecstatic.

FWIW, the webinar video was shot and broadcast live, 90 minutes from start to finish, and we never restarted SONAR or had it crash at all. Everything you saw in the video is just how it was, no editing or anything like in non-live videos.

SP

[grymmjack]

Video Summary: Cakewalk took a lot of good ideas that have been around in other DAWs for years (StudioOne, Ableton, FLStudio) and put them into Sonar X. Suddenly Sonar is competitive again.

Will cakewalk ever not be a me-too company?

You mistake features with technology. You also seem to ignore the fact that Cakewalk already existed decades before those "other DAWs" you mention. Cakewalk has been competitive for years, if it weren't it would have gone out of business long ago. They have good new products out like clockwork, and they have a large and faithful customer base. OTOH I am a bit worried about Ableton's future...

Jose; struck a nerve eh?

Please don't try to tell me "You mistake features with technology." because I don't. I never said feature or technology, you did. I said ideas, and that's definitely true. Copying lots of StudioOne and FLStudio. But you're mistaken if you think I'm mad about that, I'm glad they are WAKING UP and realizing that other products are better and to be competitive they better evolve. You must be a fanboy though to react like you did?

They are a me-too company. Sorry, it's true.

I don't care about longevity if the company creates inferior, buggy, unstable products and doesn't fix them before creating yet another inferior, buggy, unstable product, they lose my respect and my money.

I've been using CW products since the DOS sequencer days; I know all about CW and have consistently been disappointed with every single product since pro audio 9. CW isn't really well known for innovation these days and IN MY OPINION if it wasn't for Roland buying them, I doubt they'd even be in business today.

It really bums me out because I can't sell this crap, and I put so much money into CW over the years (thousands) and each time I do I have buyers remorse within a few months. Literally EVERY TIME.

CW are definitely getting better, finally realizing that design is a competitive advantage (and thank you CW for waking up finally), but I can still see pieces of sonar and crappy icons in places. It really degrades the product FOR ME because seeing those same tired, rehashed assets crammed on top of the beautiful new GUI just reminds me of the old days and seeds doubts about reliability. (what else did they skimp on this time around?) If you're going to try to fool me, better fool me all the way!

Also, even in the videos I just watched as they stopped the transport the audio POPPED. WTF? This is consistent at least with my own experience with CW products since Pro Audio 9.

I would argue that while they may have products released like clockwork it's debatable about how good they are especially if they don't work as promised. The large faithful customer base is stuck in NFR-land so might as well stay on board since we can't sell the stuff right? That's probably one of the smartest thing CW ever did; you can't escape!

But, I'm not going to be suckered into buying another CW product any time soon, at least not until I have faith that it's going to be stable, not crash, not pop and click (CW's DAW's were the only ones that did this), and definitely not until they completely exorcise the legacy demons of GUI garbage held-over from the crappier bloated pile that Sonar was before they introduced X series.

Stupid me will of course, like a fool, give X2 demo a try, hope it doesn't crash, and if it doesn't I may upgrade my copy of X1 basic to X2. I liked a lot of things I saw in that video, but as an owner also of Studio One, Ableton Live, and FL Studio, it's difficult to justify it. TBH, I've been trying to settle on 1 DAW and so far Ableton is winning. It's not perfect, but it's as close as I am likely going to get in MY OPINION, depending on the bitwigs.

I was really excited when they realized how crappy Sonar had became and released X1, but after using it for a month or two I RAN BACK to Ableton Live. I swear it's some kind of mental problem I keep believing CW will redeem themselves, and they ALMOST do except for little things here and there, but those little things drive me crazy enough to lose faith again, and the cycle repeats.

As for Ableton's future I'm not so worried about that. Unlike CW, Abes have been perfecting Live 8 ever since they realized how buggy it was, and the CEO promised that they would not release a 9 until 8 was rock solid. THAT is one of many reasons I have so much respect and admiration for Ableton (that and the fact that they introduced such innovations that turned the DAW world upside down and forced others to compete with them). As long as Live 8 keeps improving and remains stable I'll be happy.

At least since hiring Rene and bitplant (or whoever is doing the graphics for them these days) they made the right choices, same goes for softube. Really smart allies to have.

[grymmjack]

If it works as well as the video I'd be ecstatic.

FWIW, the webinar video was shot and broadcast live, 90 minutes from start to finish, and we never restarted SONAR or had it crash at all. Everything you saw in the video is just how it was, no editing or anything like in non-live videos.

SP

Within the videos, why is the transport popping audibly when you guys stop it?