Roland Cloud

[anomandaris1]

Will Roland synths get midi2.0 support anytime soon? They released a midi2.0 controller last year.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Will Roland synths get midi2.0 support anytime soon? They released a midi2.0 controller last year.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I think before we can expect to see MIDI 2.0 in any instruments we would need...

1. DAWs to support MIDI 2.0
2. Plugin formats to support MIDI 2.0
3. Plugin development frameworks to support MIDI 2.0

I'm sure we'll get there eventually, but we're probably still years away from adoption being more common. The only good news as I understand is that it's completely backwards compatible so things can kind of happen out of order. Example: maybe Steinberg adds MIDI 2.0 support to VST3, then Juice adds it, but your DAW of choice and controller hardware doesn't support it yet...that should be fine. Should help with adoption.

[anomandaris1]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I think before we can expect to see MIDI 2.0 in any instruments we would need...

1. DAWs to support MIDI 2.0
2. Plugin formats to support MIDI 2.0
3. Plugin development frameworks to support MIDI 2.0

I'm sure we'll get there eventually, but we're probably still years away from adoption being more common. The only good news as I understand is that it's completely backwards compatible so things can kind of happen out of order. Example: maybe Steinberg adds MIDI 2.0 support to VST3, then Juice adds it, but your DAW of choice and controller hardware doesn't support it yet...that should be fine. Should help with adoption.

I was looking into discounted offer for their 88 keys "midi2.0 ready" controller, but it looks there is no point, if there is no support for such stuff in the near future.

[Nightshade03]

I have been comparing JD-800 Model Expansion to Kontakt.
Here is a recreation of JD-800 Classic Sweeper in Kontakt
https://soundcloud.com/user-533108332-4 ... ic-sweeper
Some JD-800 effects and MFX routing cannot be exactly reproduced inside Kontakt, so I used separate plugins for chorus, delay and reverb. Chorus is NI Choral, delay is custom Reaktor ensemble, and reverb is NI RC24. Routing was done in Ableton Live.

How did you recreate it?

Thanks.

[fmr]

Define "totally"...

The 606 doesn't sound like an 808 or 909 and vice versa while all being drum synths. All three are totally different sounding.

Sure, they are "different sounding". Even the same model analog may sound "totally different" (in the sense of "different sounding") when they change some components (eg, the Prophet-5, or the Roland Super Jupiter). This "totally" has several degrees. For me, I would pass very well without the 606, but I accept others may find it of value. As long as all customers get what they want (which isn't clearly the case) I think Roland should establish its priorities better. IMO, of course.

[bluesawsq]

I have been comparing JD-800 Model Expansion to Kontakt.
Here is a recreation of JD-800 Classic Sweeper in Kontakt
https://soundcloud.com/user-533108332-4 ... ic-sweeper
Some JD-800 effects and MFX routing cannot be exactly reproduced inside Kontakt, so I used separate plugins for chorus, delay and reverb. Chorus is NI Choral, delay is custom Reaktor ensemble, and reverb is NI RC24. Routing was done in Ableton Live.

How did you recreate it?

Thanks.

JD-800 architecture is pretty basic 4-layer subtractive synth with multisampled waveforms, multimode filters, modulation, and effects. Almost all parts of JD-800 synth engine can be emulated in Kontakt.

The Classic Sweeper preset was recreated by first sampling the raw waveforms, mapping samples to zones, and looping the samples. There are 32 raw samples in that patch: 13 in Wire Str, 5 in Male Vox, 14 in FAT Saw. Signal levels, envelope times and curves, filter cutoff and resonace, LFO rates, effect etc were measured using oscilloscope and spectrum analyzer plugins. Simple Init preset was used as starting point in those measurements to isolate the processing of each component. The result was a conversion table from JD-800's unitless parameter values to Kontakt's values in seconds, Hz, dB, %, etc.
JD-800 manual is a good reference to check how various features work in detail.

Kontakt has many different filter types, envelope types, and effect types. Those were compared and the ones closest to JD-800 features and sound were selected.
'3x2 Versatile' filter is quite close, but the highest resonance frequency seem to be limited to 11 kHz, just like the Zenology one. Alternatively, you could use 'Ladder LP2/HP2/BP2' if you need to get to 12 kHz like the real JD-800 HW. Some experiments were done to emulate the peculiar JD-800 feature where filter is clipping at high resonance. TVF and TVA envelopes can be emulated using 'flexible envelope' type in Kontakt. For chorus effect use Choral in 'Dimension' mode.

The signal routing in MFX group B is a bit more complex than it first appears. The details are shown in JD-800 manual. That type of parallel signal routing is not possible in Kontakt. More accurate JD-800 effects routing emulation can be done using external effects plugins and routing in DAW. Some JD-800 presets can be emulated also using only Kontakt's internal effects, but one obvious limitation is the delay effect in Kontakt. There is no multitap stereo delay included in Kontakt. Also, the negative feedback option is missing in many delay VST plugins. That's why I used Reaktor for the delay effect. The Reaktor ensemble is based on Dual Sync Delay ensemble where I added a third delay line for the center signal and made couple of other minor tweaks. Alternatively you could use for example U-He MFM2.

A Python script was used for translating JD-990 sysex files to human readable format. That makes it easy to check the original preset settings used in real hardware. The Zenology JD-800 Model Expansion parameters are not all 1:1 mapped from the HW, so it's good to have also the original HW values as reference.

The Classic Sweeper preset in Kontakt was first matched to JD-800 Model Expansion preset. Then it was further tweaked to get closer to original HW sound by comparing to SynthMania Youtube video.

A nice bonus with Kontakt is that you can use any samples as waveform sources. And you get more filter types, panning per tone, and much more flexible modulation. It's not limited to JD-800 features. You get closer to JD-990 features, and partly even beyond. You could even use wavetable oscillators and get oscillator sync emulation. Still, JD-990's ring modulation and FXM are not possible in Kontakt.

[Arashi]

Define "totally"...

The 606 doesn't sound like an 808 or 909 and vice versa while all being drum synths. All three are totally different sounding.

Sure, they are "different sounding". Even the same model analog may sound "totally different" (in the sense of "different sounding") when they change some components (eg, the Prophet-5, or the Roland Super Jupiter). This "totally" has several degrees. For me, I would pass very well without the 606, but I accept others may find it of value. As long as all customers get what they want (which isn't clearly the case) I think Roland should establish its priorities better. IMO, of course.

As I understand it, the 606 was intended to be a lower cost 808 that pairs well with the 303, and it’s sort of superficially similar, but it actually sounds quite different…especially with the accent turned up. At the very least, they sound different enough to me that I bought them all as hardware (TR-06/08/09) and frequently use them together.

Honestly, though, the actual 606 is not very exciting to me, and I can take or leave the plugin version, but the boutique is really cool. It has a bunch of features the original lacks, including fully tweakable sounds (and even alternate sounds, which are all proper dynamic models and not just samples), per-step velocity and probability, extra performance controls, a bunch of trigger outputs, and more. If I was only using Roland Cloud and not interested in hardware, yeah, I could see the TR-606 being a somewhat uninteresting addition to the lineup, but the bigger picture is they created the ACB model for the TR-06 and TR-6S, and at that point it just makes sense to bring it to Roland Cloud as well.

I don’t have the data to suggest what Roland’s priorities should be. They know more about their business than we do.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Define "totally"...

The 606 doesn't sound like an 808 or 909 and vice versa while all being drum synths. All three are totally different sounding.

Sure, they are "different sounding". Even the same model analog may sound "totally different" (in the sense of "different sounding") when they change some components (eg, the Prophet-5, or the Roland Super Jupiter). This "totally" has several degrees. For me, I would pass very well without the 606, but I accept others may find it of value. As long as all customers get what they want (which isn't clearly the case) I think Roland should establish its priorities better. IMO, of course.

The 606 has the best sounding hats in the bunch. The kick and snare are interesting too. Totally a favorite. I personally find it more useable than the 909 which has awful hats and otherwise sounds super dated as a techno machine. So I don’t see the difference as minor like changing chips in a synthesizer. These are very different sounding drum machines.

[WatchTheGuitar]

One of the big things about the 606, especially compared to the 808/909, is the way accents clip the sound when you drive them.
Also, this isn’t a Cloud version thing, but there were some great mods for the original unit around which added tuning and crazy sustain/decay levels.

[Nightshade03]

I have been comparing JD-800 Model Expansion to Kontakt.
Here is a recreation of JD-800 Classic Sweeper in Kontakt
https://soundcloud.com/user-533108332-4 ... ic-sweeper
Some JD-800 effects and MFX routing cannot be exactly reproduced inside Kontakt, so I used separate plugins for chorus, delay and reverb. Chorus is NI Choral, delay is custom Reaktor ensemble, and reverb is NI RC24. Routing was done in Ableton Live.

How did you recreate it?

Thanks.

JD-800 architecture is pretty basic 4-layer subtractive synth with multisampled waveforms, multimode filters, modulation, and effects. Almost all parts of JD-800 synth engine can be emulated in Kontakt.

The Classic Sweeper preset was recreated by first sampling the raw waveforms, mapping samples to zones, and looping the samples. There are 32 raw samples in that patch: 13 in Wire Str, 5 in Male Vox, 14 in FAT Saw. Signal levels, envelope times and curves, filter cutoff and resonace, LFO rates, effect etc were measured using oscilloscope and spectrum analyzer plugins. Simple Init preset was used as starting point in those measurements to isolate the processing of each component. The result was a conversion table from JD-800's unitless parameter values to Kontakt's values in seconds, Hz, dB, %, etc.
JD-800 manual is a good reference to check how various features work in detail.

Kontakt has many different filter types, envelope types, and effect types. Those were compared and the ones closest to JD-800 features and sound were selected.
'3x2 Versatile' filter is quite close, but the highest resonance frequency seem to be limited to 11 kHz, just like the Zenology one. Alternatively, you could use 'Ladder LP2/HP2/BP2' if you need to get to 12 kHz like the real JD-800 HW. Some experiments were done to emulate the peculiar JD-800 feature where filter is clipping at high resonance. TVF and TVA envelopes can be emulated using 'flexible envelope' type in Kontakt. For chorus effect use Choral in 'Dimension' mode.

The signal routing in MFX group B is a bit more complex than it first appears. The details are shown in JD-800 manual. That type of parallel signal routing is not possible in Kontakt. More accurate JD-800 effects routing emulation can be done using external effects plugins and routing in DAW. Some JD-800 presets can be emulated also using only Kontakt's internal effects, but one obvious limitation is the delay effect in Kontakt. There is no multitap stereo delay included in Kontakt. Also, the negative feedback option is missing in many delay VST plugins. That's why I used Reaktor for the delay effect. The Reaktor ensemble is based on Dual Sync Delay ensemble where I added a third delay line for the center signal and made couple of other minor tweaks. Alternatively you could use for example U-He MFM2.

A Python script was used for translating JD-990 sysex files to human readable format. That makes it easy to check the original preset settings used in real hardware. The Zenology JD-800 Model Expansion parameters are not all 1:1 mapped from the HW, so it's good to have also the original HW values as reference.

The Classic Sweeper preset in Kontakt was first matched to JD-800 Model Expansion preset. Then it was further tweaked to get closer to original HW sound by comparing to SynthMania Youtube video.

A nice bonus with Kontakt is that you can use any samples as waveform sources. And you get more filter types, panning per tone, and much more flexible modulation. It's not limited to JD-800 features. You get closer to JD-990 features, and partly even beyond. You could even use wavetable oscillators and get oscillator sync emulation. Still, JD-990's ring modulation and FXM are not possible in Kontakt.

Wow, great work.

Thank you.

[Gribs]

Do owners of the Jupiter X and Xm have to pay extra to use Zenology and the Model Expansions also on the Computer?

Necro-ing this question, the answer is yes for Zenology-Pro and the model expansions. It is similar for the MC-707 and other Zencore engine products.

I am planning to buy a new flagship keyboard synthesizer in a couple of months. I am not buying a "workstation" (Kronos, Montage, Fantom). Eff-me sideways, but I have developed significant GAS for the Jupiter-X. If Zenology Pro and the model expansions were included that would likely tip the scales away from the Summit, Quantum, and Polybrute.

[WatchTheGuitar]

I feel there’s a Jupiter XL missing from their range with 73 keys, Poly AT and Zen Pro + expansions for life

[Gribs]

I'd be happy with Zen Pro and the model expansions that correlate with the model buttons on the front panel. One can always hope. Roland did provide a 1 year cloud pro subscription with my MC-707 (and any other Zencore purchases) last holiday time and had some decent deals on lifetime licenses for some of the models.

We all have our ideas of what various items are worth versus what manufacturers and developers charge for them. As a decent subtractive synth I would say Zenology Pro is worth perhaps $150 tops. The expansions are scripted GUIs running over the same engine so they are perhaps $50 each. A comparable might be something like Hive or perhaps Rapid. I would say Falcon but that has many more synth capabilities even though on sale its price is similar to Zenology Pro. A Falcon expansion is about $40.

The main reason for wanting Zenology Pro and the model expansions is, to be honest, to have a software editor and librarian. For my MC-707 Zenology Pro is enough.

[canadian_moose]

Will that 'play 4 life' offer return at any point soon? Might convince me for a 1 year sub if so....

[EnochLight]

Will that 'play 4 life' offer return at any point soon? Might convince me for a 1 year sub if so....

Seems to come and go..