Real guitar amps vs: amp sims???

[arrteestic]

Probably should have taken the time to post my rambling message to Hink (who is going thru a hard patch in his life) somewhere more appropriate like in the "off topic" forum or directly to his email. But anyway, Hink got it and emailed me back... he's back and doing a bit better so, I promise I'll try to stay on topic here...

Johnny B said; "The best way to learn is on crap gear." and; "Gear is gear. There's nothing wrong with a $150 guitar when you're starting...."

HEY! THEN I'M GOOD TO GO!... Got me a tele copy I built out of cheap Chinese parts I bought on ebay... total cost: about $150. Now, I just need to learn 3 more chords for a total of 6 and I'll be ready for the BIG TIME!.... well, maybe not just yet...

But, on to my next question (back on topic kinda/sorta):

Eventually, I may want to play out. I can't take my guitar and "rig" out as it is now; a desktop P.C., a 19" flat screen monitor and a 2-12 cab powered by a Peavey 100 watt mixer/amp head would look pretty strange on-stage even if there was room for it.

Now about Receptor; is this a rack mount hardware alternative to having to use a computer for running music software like an ampsim or am I getting it wrong? Seems someone would eventually come up with a more "musician friendly" solution to lugging a computer around to gigs and recording studios, but is that what this is?

Also, has anyone here seen or checked out the new Fender "computerized" amps which I think blur the line between real amp and ampsims? I know a lot of guitar "tone purists" hate the Line-6 amps and guitars. Is Fender doing a similar thing here or is it an improvement on the Line-6 stuff?

Multiple questions I know... but anybody out there kind and willing enough to offer me any suggestions...

...other than to quit playing guitar???

[Johnny B]

when you're starting, but a professional's probably not going to touch one. The same goes for plug-ins, etc.

okay, here is where you lose me, te way I see it the artist who can create good music on a $150 guitar is apt to be pretty damn talented as opposed to the artist who feels the need the shell out 2k for a name to validate his talent...I'd rather watch the player with $150 guitar doing the best he can than the cocky artist with the 2k guitar...in the end it's about expression, can't place a dollar value on that now can yah?

I was going to post something similar. I remember an interview with Brian Eno who once said that he uses the same cheap, crappy guitar that he has used for years, but won't part with it as he has never found another guitar that produces the same sound. Similary, Brian May reverted to using the home made amplifier that John Deacon made as a pre-amp after a few years of using the factory modded AC30s that just didn't give the same sound.

There's no reason that a pro wouldn't use a cheap piece of crap if it gave them what they wanted.

Of course not. That's not what I meant. I definitely phrased that badly. That should teach me to post without having had enough coffee.

The point I was trying to make was that anything is good enough to start on, but as one improves that person is likely to want better gear. There are a lot of great players using crappy old gear because they like it, but there are also great players using really nice guitars because they're made better and are easier to play.

FWIW, I'm still playing the same 80's Japanese Telecaster that I bought for $250 in 1994. I've broken the neck on it and had it fixed twice. I've replaced all the hardware as it's worn out and I've changed the pickups. I will never get rid of that guitar. In fact, I've considered having a copy of it made in case I ever completely destroy it.

But I have friends who have expensive guitars. And in some cases the expense is justified and in some cases it isn't.

[BertKoor]

Is there a list anywhere of the hardware based sims? The POD looks pretty nice.

There's a list allright:
http://www.guitarcenter.com/shop/naviga ... 0&g=guitar

[BertKoor]

Eventually, I may want to play out. I can't take my guitar and "rig" out as it is now; a desktop P.C., a 19" flat screen monitor and a 2-12 cab powered by a Peavey 100 watt mixer/amp head would look pretty strange on-stage even if there was room for it.

Now about Receptor; is this a rack mount hardware alternative to having to use a computer for running music software like an ampsim or am I getting it wrong? Seems someone would eventually come up with a more "musician friendly" solution to lugging a computer around to gigs and recording studios, but is that what this is?

Also, has anyone here seen or checked out the new Fender "computerized" amps which I think blur the line between real amp and ampsims? I know a lot of guitar "tone purists" hate the Line-6 amps and guitars. Is Fender doing a similar thing here or is it an improvement on the Line-6 stuff?

To gig you need your guitar, something with speakers and stuff inbetween to make yourself heard. Some options:

* just a good guitar amp, maybe some stomp boxes inbetween
* Line6 Pod, Vox Tonelabs, Behringer V-Amp etc etc etc ran through any decent big amp and speakers

How "big" the amp actually must be is discussable ofcourse, depending also on the volume of your jamming partners.

Receptor is more targeted to taking VST synths on the road. There is a guy that made something himself: http://www.jesusonic.com/

[arrteestic]

BertKoor; thanx for the advice!

You've reminded me to take a fresh look at the compact hardware ampsims out there now. Have not seriously done so since checking out a freind's SansAmp about 8 years ago... (yawn) ...one of their first models. Am sure improvements have been made since then.

Behringer, Line 6 and Vox making similar hardware?... I'll definitely have to check them out!

As for how much power I should be using, you are so right to suggest that the size of the amp should fit the "venue" or volume situation it's used in. If using my 100 watt transistor amp to power an ampsim, the volume could be on 2 and I'd still get my "sound" without drowning out my jam buddies, all of whom use small combo tube amps.

Until I'm ready to terrify and torture them with my guitar "playing", I'm happy running my NI Guitar Rig thru a 20 watt amp at home.

[Hink]

you know it's a funny thing, I have never heard my neighbors complain about my boogie 1/2 stack

[Hink]

well so much for that

anyhow...I think I can sum this whole argument up nicely and swiftly....tube amps are built to play loud (you could ask my guinea pig, but I really thing I blew her ears out) and sims are built for recording where you can't play loud...I love my PODS, no doubt...some kick ass tones...but nothing beats the kick of that boogie at about 8 (60/100 watt switch set to 60 until the neighbor started banging on the ceiling. then I flipped it to 100 and the started banging on the door)...for live IMHO it's tubes all the way....for recording because of the finesse and ability to create intricate textures the sims have the edge...but that's just one man's opinion

[CapnLockheed]

well so much for that

anyhow...I think I can sum this whole argument up nicely and swiftly....tube amps are built to play loud (you could ask my guinea pig, but I really thing I blew her ears out) and sims are built for recording where you can't play loud...I love my PODS, no doubt...some kick ass tones...but nothing beats the kick of that boogie at about 8 (60/100 watt switch set to 60 until the neighbor started banging on the ceiling. then I flipped it to 100 and the started banging on the door)...for live IMHO it's tubes all the way....for recording because of the finesse and ability to create intricate textures the sims have the edge...but that's just one man's opinion

And opinions are like.... I agree 100% with the first half
of that statement. There's NOTHING like 100 watts of pure tube
goodness pumping through 8-12" speakers. Chest thumping, pants
flapping in the sonic breeze.

There's simply no good reason IMHO to play live through sims hard or soft. The combination of my well stocked pedal board and my trusty '56 Fender Vibrolux gives me all I could ever want on stage. That being said...that same rig sounds GREAT in the studio, as does my 5 watt Danelectro DM-10, as does Guitar Rig, as does my Boss GS10, as does my Sovtek Mig50h, as does SimulAnalog Guitar Suite as does Line 6 PodXT. I guess what I'm trying to say..perhaps rather poorly...is that a good guitar and
tube amp rig provides..for me anyway..the ultimate means
of artistic expression in a live environment. In the studio
however, one cannot have too many crayons!!

Cheers.....CL

[Hink]

well so much for that

anyhow...I think I can sum this whole argument up nicely and swiftly....tube amps are built to play loud (you could ask my guinea pig, but I really thing I blew her ears out) and sims are built for recording where you can't play loud...I love my PODS, no doubt...some kick ass tones...but nothing beats the kick of that boogie at about 8 (60/100 watt switch set to 60 until the neighbor started banging on the ceiling. then I flipped it to 100 and the started banging on the door)...for live IMHO it's tubes all the way....for recording because of the finesse and ability to create intricate textures the sims have the edge...but that's just one man's opinion

And opinions are like.... I agree 100% with the first half
of that statement. There's NOTHING like 100 watts of pure tube
goodness pumping through 8-12" speakers. Chest thumping, pants
flapping in the sonic breeze.

There's simply no good reason IMHO to play live through sims hard or soft. The combination of my well stocked pedal board and my trusty '56 Fender Vibrolux gives me all I could ever want on stage. That being said...that same rig sounds GREAT in the studio, as does my 5 watt Danelectro DM-10, as does Guitar Rig, as does my Boss GS10, as does my Sovtek Mig50h, as does SimulAnalog Guitar Suite as does Line 6 PodXT. I guess what I'm trying to say..perhaps rather poorly...is that a good guitar and
tube amp rig provides..for me anyway..the ultimate means
of artistic expression in a live environment. In the studio
however, one cannot have too many crayons!!

Cheers.....CL

which is really what I meant....if I could mic up my cab I would...but mister hiphop downstairs is likely to ruin those takes....but I can't see me taking a POD out on a stage (except perhaps jam nights.. a pod is easier to carry around then an elephant gun stack)...

[tk421]

Being new to guitar, all these amp sims and VSTs are looking like the gateway drug to analog. Talking with a friend tonight who is 1,000 times the musician I will ever be, we agreed guitar and stringed instruments in general might be the most interesting and expressive instruments ever. All of these FX, analog, digital, real or virtual are very exciting to me, being new to guitar. Readong everyone's opinions os very helpful, even when I become obsessed with sound more than learning to play.

[james0tucson]

Consider BB King's setup -- a Lab System amp turned way up, and that's it. No pedals. Not even a Wah. Not even a footswitch to go from one speaker to two (but he does have a knob on his guitar that balances two channels on his amp).

Not too long ago, I stood in the pouring rain to hear him play in Sedona. One of his daughters and her kids were standing there too, in the rain. (He has about a dozen kids by all different women.) It was kind of interesting, but also kind of depressing, to talk to them between sets, but we all shared umbrellas and sort of situated our little crowd so that we could kind of stay dry.

I've been going to shows of his for nearly 40 years. Since I've been aware of such things, I would say I've never seen him do anything except play straight guitar into a loud amp, no matter what stage he was on, no matter how big his band was. I also suspect I could count on my fingers and toes the number of times I've heard him play more than a 3-note chord. For that matter, he rarely plays two notes together.

[CapnLockheed]

a Lab System amp

Lab Series L5, not bad for a solid state amp.
Ty Tabor likes 'em too!!

but mister hiphop downstairs is likely to ruin those takes....

Neighbors suck!! Fortunately I no longer have any close enough to sh*t on my takes!!

Cheers.....CL

[meeks]

Eventually, I may want to play out. I can't take my guitar and "rig" out as it is now; a desktop P.C., a 19" flat screen monitor and a 2-12 cab powered by a Peavey 100 watt mixer/amp head would look pretty strange on-stage even if there was room for it.

Now about Receptor; is this a rack mount hardware alternative to having to use a computer for running music software like an ampsim or am I getting it wrong? Seems someone would eventually come up with a more "musician friendly" solution to lugging a computer around to gigs and recording studios, but is that what this is?



...other than to quit playing guitar???

Yes, it's called POD XT or get a laptop.

Seriously, what do you plan to use as an amp? Then get an amp, if you need something modeled get a LINE 6 product if you need something cheap to play live. Oh, and buy the way, it's not wise to get crappy gear. Cheap doesn't mean it has to be crappy, know what you buy and know it well.

[arrteestic]

I would agree that currently nothing (be it from a digital, transistor or other source) beats the sound of a nice tube twin (or name your favorite combo or 1/2 stack) crrranked up and MOVING AIR! I appreciate that from being right up close to them on stage and in basements playing my main axe; bass.

I fully agree with meeks that a laptop would work best to run a software ampsims thru if playing out. The only thing preventing me at the moment is $$$. It's curious to see how a group like Kraftwork evolved from stacks of hardware analog synths 30 years ago to all five members using just laptops on stage.

Oh yeah, totally agree with the last comment about crappy gear. There are several quite expensive basses and amps I've bought over the past 30 years that were partially, if not totally crap. On the other hand, some of the best gear I've had or still use cost very little, but performed and sounded great.

B.B.King; I do like his sound...simple yet elegant.
I think Albert Collins also used a big "concert size" transistor amp.

[Lunch Money]

I would agree that currently nothing (be it from a digital, transistor or other source) beats the sound of a nice tube twin (or name your favorite combo or 1/2 stack) crrranked up and MOVING AIR!

And this is really the point that people keep seeming to miss. OK, I'll STILL grant that the sound of the amp is better, period. But part of the overall experience is the loudness and the "MOVING AIR!" Most people don't record with a sim through 2X10 Celestions or whatnot. They're using a sim because they can bypass that and therefore record with more convenience for whatever reason. I mean crikey... it's a completely different experience. You can't plug into a sim and listen at "reasonable levels" and expect to get the same "my hair's standing on end" vibe out of it.

Greg