Real guitar amps vs: amp sims???

[arrteestic]

Hardware vs Amp sims?.. I know the some of the conversation threads I've followed here have kinda veered off that course but here goes; I am a novice at guitar... I'm happy to just jam out on my computer with an amp sim... sounds pretty good to my "uneducated" ears. Most of my guitar playing friends have nice tube amps... all different brands and sizes so I am pretty familiar with the sound of a real tube amp. But, I don't have the bucks or room for a nice Marshall or Fender tube amp. I know my ears are good enough to tell the difference between a real twin amp and a software sim of one... but I'll bet that most people (even pro musicians) who were to listen to a hardware vs. well tweaked amp sim in a side by side "blindfold test" wouldn't be able to tell the difference! I know the guitar purists out there are cringing at the thought of guitar players plugging into a computer onstage to use as their source of sound, but for good or bad... I believe it is going to become part of the future of guitars in recorded and yes, even live music. I've already seen one rackmount rig on the web sporting a mini-mac running a guitar amp sim program. Midi foot controllers are getting better and more affordable these days. I'm sure that the amp sims can only get better not worse. The electric guitar purists out there need not worry... Tube amps and stomp boxes will still be around for a lonnng time to come. I doubt anyone is going to come up with a "guitar sim"!

[S.HUSH]

Ok.

[RichardGreenblat]

I use a guitar synth and an amp simulation i like to think thare not ment to be a copy the real thing thay got thare own feel the amp is exellent like you said

[friteuse]

I think, since I have Amplitube2, amp simulations have become better and better. I even believe that the difference between amp and simulation is very small. In fact, the sim might be much better, if you are not experienced in micing & recording techniques, or if you do not have all that fine equipment.

However, the main difference I feel is the fun. Dunno, but building the whole set up with amp, mics etc., testing different settings and then record gives me a kind of good feeling, it's the impression to do something 'great' Which surely flows into music. But this is subjective, it's up to you...

[stag]

By using ampsims are taken from tracking a guitar a lot of processes. This could be bad or great. Having the coolest guitar\amp combination isn't enough, having good mics, console is also necessary, not to mention a good sound engineer.
With ampsims the quality of the gear involved also matters, namely converters, pre\DI and monitoring, nevertheless a sound engineer at the point of traking isn't needed anymore, maybe when mixing. It makes the whole process a lot simpler doe.
I got last week a pre from Ampeg, SVTMP, it makes all the difference but franckly i was pretty satisfied with the inbuilt DI's of FF800, Ozonic, US-122 DI's and with Onyx 400f crushed by its superiority.
I doubt, however, good results can be achieved with the line in of a lot of cards, even the great ones.

Bye.

[CapnLockheed]

Aples vs. oranges?? I love amps, I love sims. Both
have their uses, strengths and weaknesses. Never have
guitar players had so many good choices. I don't see
this situation as being worth arguing about.

Cheers.....CL

[Hink]

Aples vs. oranges?? I love amps, I love sims. Both
have their uses, strengths and weaknesses. Never have
guitar players had so many good choices. I don't see
this situation as being worth arguing about.

Cheers.....CL

This is one of the most logical and reasonable responses I've heard on the subject yet. It really has reached a point where arguing is pointless, debating the pros and cons to benefit those trying to choose bewteen the two though can be productive.

I think the first thing to remember is no matter how you go nothing is going to be the ultimate one stop solution. The concept that sims are better than amps or vice versa really a lot of who shot John. I'm now fortunate to have pretty much the whole gambit of choices. So I'll run through each, and pros and cons. But it's important to realize that all of them have the potential to sound great, or terrible.

The amp, mine is a choice between a Mesa/Boogie 100/60 watt head going into a 4x12 with vintage celestions or running a hybrid rackmount rig using a Marshall tube pre-amp, some fx and a 400 watt mono power amp.

Pros are...
1. Traditional tube sounds
2. No speaker emulation is needed
3. No excess cpu usage
4. I also have nice live choices, so it's versatile
5. Mic'ing really isn't rocket science, a 57, a little expirimenting and you're good to go
6. Many tube amps are built like tanks and there isn't much to the circuts so repair is easy

Cons are
1. micing presents problems like picking up outside noise and/or being too loud for where you record..ie, apartment dwellers. I live on a very busy street, picking up traffic, sirens and other road noises is extreme. Of course building an isolation box with one speaker can solve a lot of this, but so much for my nice sounding cab. A truck, my family coming in the door, the people downstairs can ruin a good take.
2. Many of the amps are not super versatile when it comes to a variety of tones you can get. So you do commit yourself to a few tones.
3. Noise, old amps tend to be noisy...there can easily be a lot of hiss, if you get to close to an amp (a tube amp is worse) you will get hum from the transformers.
4. Mics can get bumped, you can trip over the cable and move them ect...so getting the exact same tone twice might be tough. Sure if you have good ears you can get pretty close, but at the same time those good ears may hear what John Q Public doesn't and you might veto the take that is actually fine.
5. Tube amps can vary easily by input voltage, if you live in an old house where everytime something that draws a lot electricity the lights dim, you may have troubles.

PC based sims
Pros
1. No concern for for ambient sounds ruining a take, nor do you have to worry about disturbing others
2. They give you myriad of choices in tones
3. You can save your settings for the future
4. Most of them do in fact have some good sounds
5. Potential for upgrades and improvement
6. Much less noise

Cons
1. Too much time imo is spent on getting the same tone as amp "x"..as opposed just getting a good tone
2. Latency
3. More cpu usage for your machine to deal with
4. There's a lot more to it than just putting a mic in front of a speaker and jamming. The learning curve is steeper
5. Installation issues and copy protection schemes that might just be one more pain in the ass to deal with.
6. Some companies do not allow transfers, so once you've bought it you're stuck with it

Hardware based sims (like PODs)
Pros
1. All of the above for pc based sims
2. No additional cpu usage
3. Latency free options abound
4. No protection schemes
5. Portability

Cons
1. It's easy to get caught up in the whole 'model' thing, like for instance...they will sound good, but they may not always sound just like the model...imo it would be better to drop labels
2. It's still a sim, naturally some things will not respond exactly like a real amp...like feedback as one example
3. After the warranty expires repairs may be costly
4. Not all the hardware sims are built to be durable


I'm sure many more people will add more pros and cons for all (at least I hope so), but the true bottom line is there is no universal right answer. There is only the right solution for you. Don't always listen to those who say one or the other sounds better, often they are biased due to the choice they made. The best thing to remember is the player behind the ax will be what determines what sounds good.

I base this on owning and using the above mentioned 1/2 stack options, a POD2.0, a POD xt live, Tone Port and gear box that comes with line six and a Sansamp GT2.

Good luck with your decision, I hope this helps some

[robenestobenz]

The listener won't give one iota of a damn if you use a real amp or not. Well, let me qualify that - your listener, if not a guitarist, will not give one iota of a damn if you use a real amp or not.

So if it sounds good to you, it's good. Though, as Hink says, the feedback sucks through softsims.

[robogone]

I think one of the things that is missing from these discussions is that a lot of people have been using amp modeling for years now, and although in its infancy you could tell a mile off, there is a lot of hardware and software modeling that does the job very well.

Of course, it depends what you're doing the modeling with, as some tools are better than others, and it's been debated to death here already.

I say go with what sounds good for you. Try that 'side by side' test that you were talking about - record something and let a few people hear. If you get most people saying "that doesn't sound like a real guitar" then you know you've got problems, but if no one says anything, why worry about it?

[.jon]

amps sims are wonderful and fantastic

much better than real amps

especially free amp sims

used on synths in an apartment

and as I don't play a guitar.

[Har]

I use hardware amp-sims, a SansAmp GT2 for guitar and SansAmp BassDriver DI for bass...but to be honest, I'm not always going for a "classic" warm guitar tone.

Depending on what kind of sound I'm trying to get, I'll sometimes use a mix of hardware AND software amp-sims to tweak things to the point I'm happy with the sound.

For example, I recently did a track where I ran my guitars through the GT2, then into two different tube-based hardware units (Hughes & Kettner Rotosphere II set to "brake" to just get its tube tone and cabinet sim, and then into a PreSonus TubePRE - both use a 12AX7 tube), then finally into the mixer and soundcard...after which I tweaked it a little further using the free Cortex amp-sim plugin to process things just a little further: the resulting sound was huge, warm and exactly what I was looking for.
I've also used almost the same rig for bass (swapping out the GT2 for the BassDriver DI), on another recent track where I was aiming for a powerful, raw bass tone...also worked wonderfully.

So, to echo what others here have said: work with what works best for you - there's nothing wrong with trying BOTH hardware and software if it ultimately gives you the sound YOU want.

[lfm]

This would keep you occupied for a while

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... amp+sim%2A

Most is said in there.

[Plexi Head]

The amp, mine is a choice between a Mesa/Boogie 100/60 watt head going into a 4x12 with vintage celestions or running a hybrid rackmount rig using a Marshall tube pre-amp, some fx and a 400 watt mono power amp.

[/quote]

Yep, thats what I need, a 400 watt power amp>

[Trusty]

Amp sims are good enough for me. Looks like Receptor + Guitar Rig + Behringer FCB1010 is all a guitarist needs these days to rock an arena... Seriously though...I think the flexability or amp sims makes it ahead of real gear...and easier to pack up and/or unload. But this is also just my preference. Piss on sound quality of the real thing being about 20%-30% "better" when I can have sims of 1000's of dollars worth of gear for cheap and it all fit in a backpack and guitar bag...

...but then again I am lazy and not too picky.

[CapnLockheed]

First of all.....RIGHT ON HINK!!

amps sims are wonderful and fantastic

much better than real amps

especially free amp sims

used on synths in an apartment

and as I don't play a guitar.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

I don't play a guitar

'nuff said!!

Amp sims are good enough for me. Looks like Receptor + Guitar Rig + Behringer FCB1010 is all a guitarist needs these days to rock an arena... Seriously though...I think the flexability or amp sims makes it ahead of real gear...and easier to pack up and/or unload. But this is also just my preference. Piss on sound quality of the real thing being about 20%-30% "better" when I can have sims of 1000's of dollars worth of gear for cheap and it all fit in a backpack and guitar bag...

...but then again I am lazy and not too picky.

Now I know one should'nt assume but...I'm
going to go out on a limb here. Based on your statement I'm going to assume that:

1) You've never owned a Marshall stack or a
Fender Twin.

2) You've never "rocked an arena" with anything let alone a Receptor.

3) You've never even rocked your bedroom with a Receptor owing largely to the fact
that you don't own one.

4) You're under 30 and you've been playing
guitar for less than ten years.

If I'm wrong about any of the above assumptions please accept my sincere apologies. If not then

GOD I LOVE THESE DUMBASS THREADS!!

"My warm analog penis is much better than your cold digital dildo"



Cheers.....CL