MuTools

liquidsound · Post by **liquidsound** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:48 am

Jo I'm playing with SynthMaster 2.0 and ACE.

SynthMaster preset = 2D Bass
ACE preset = BT dirty fm bass
Four notes, one after the other (one empty Tick in between notes as you explained).

Here we go:
On MuLab the synths are playing as expected. All the notes individually.
After the Quantize Length though, the four notes play as one long note as you predicted in certain cases. No longer on/off due to the 300+300+300+300 instead of 299+1+299+1+299+1+299.
So far so good and clear.

BUT

On XT at 300+300+300+300 (not the same units (960+960 etc.) but just for the sake of understanding) the notes are still playing individually as in MuLab 299+1 etc.

Why is Mulab treating the same note's length differently?

This is not an inquisition but rather a need to understand MuLab as much as possible.

Thank you.

pljones · Post by **pljones** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:26 am

The only question is whether duration is the period measured from Note On to Note Off inclusive, or whether it's the period from Note On to "just before" Note Off inclusive. I believe the duration includes the Note Off tick.

On Branis's ruler, view the labelled bars as where events happen - ticks. Let's say a Note On happens on event 0 and a Note Off on event 9. I think that's ten ticks long for a note. Jo thinks it's nine ticks long for the note.

Now where it gets really hairy is when you ask what the minimum note length is.

A Note On event takes one tick. So it definitely can't be less than one tick. If you have a Note Off with the same "address" (and cytone, they are addresses for ticks, just like an array) as the Note On, you can't predict (officially) whether it will be processed before or after the Note On. And I still think you'd have a minimum of one tick in this situation (and potentially the Note Off gets processed first...). However, "in my world", where the Note Off has to follow the Note On in a separate tick, I get a minimum length of two ticks (one for the Note On, one for the Note Off).

I certainly think it's more useful for the duration to include the Note Off's tick. That you then have a minimum length of 2 ticks also seems "right" to me. (That note needs those two ticks! It won't work right without them - no use denying the note its proper existence!

)

janamdo · Post by **janamdo** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:53 am

Yes, from 0 ... 10 there are 10 ticks (10 spaces= ticks between the numbers)
Tick 1 starts on time 0 end ends on time 1 ..tick 2 starts on time 1 en ends on time 2... and so on

MuTools · Post by **MuTools** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:33 am

liquidsound wrote:Why is Mulab treating the same note's length differently?

Doesn't this post answer the question:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 60#4048960

?

TheGuysanIdiot · Post by **TheGuysanIdiot** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:49 am

Hi All,

I got my MIDI books out of the loft late last night and have started to read stuff so that I can give more accurate feedback on this subject.

I will write some stuff later today as I need to go out.

I think this topic is very interesting it has got me thinking, which is a good thing for the brain. Maths, music, time, MIDI books, confusion and my headache, what a great combination.

Anyway talk amongst yourselves for now.

I shall return with pearls of wisdom later today or I will just add to the confusion if I have not got my head completely round this topic.

Have fun and see you later.

OZ

MuTools · Post by **MuTools** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:51 am

pljones wrote:The only question is whether duration is the period measured from Note On to Note Off inclusive, or whether it's the period from Note On to "just before" Note Off inclusive. I believe the duration includes the Note Off tick.

Note off is an event, it has no length of its own.

On Branis's ruler, view the labelled bars as where events happen - ticks. Let's say a Note On happens on event 0 and a Note Off on event 9. I think that's ten ticks long for a note. Jo thinks it's nine ticks long for the note.

On Branis ruler (which indeed is a correct representation), the note off is at tick 10.

Please also note what liquidsound correctly said: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 14#4049114

A Note On event takes one tick.

Nope, that's not correct. A note-on has no length on its own.

A note has a length.

Technically, a note is a combi of a note-on and a note-off, cfr the MIDI.

If a note has a length of 300 ticks, the note-on is sent at 1.1.0000, the note-off is sent at 1.1.0300.

And cfr what liquidsound wrote:

One single tick has a time length too. 1200 ticks per beat, e.g. 120 BPM => 1 tick is 0.417 ms long. Anyway all processing is always done at the very beginning of a tick. So if the note-on is sent at the beginning of tick 1.1.0000 and the note-off is sent at the beginning of tick 1.1.0300, then there are 300 ticks in between. I don't understand your confusion. I.e. i don't understand why you see that as 301 ticks, i don't understand why you start counting at the beginning of the first tick, but then stop counting at the end of the last tick. That's not correct. Hope this finally clarifies it.

Bonteburg · Post by **Bonteburg** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:16 am

It all seems pretty academic to me. What would the practical implications/possible problems of such a length difference or gap be? Does MU.LAB somehow not 'do' monophonic synths, but then it does?

Not trying to take sides but I'm really interested because I really don't know all too much about the nuts and bolts of MIDI.

Marco

pljones · Post by **pljones** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:38 am

mutools wrote:Technically, a note is a combi of a note-on and a note-off, cfr the MIDI.

Agreed.

mutools wrote:If a note has a length of 300 ticks, the note-on is sent at 1.1.0000, the note-off is sent at 1.1.0300.

Disagreed.

Ticks have duration. In MIDI terms, the processing happens during the tick, not at the start of the tick.

If you send Note On at 1.1.0000, the start of the note can be considered as the beginning of that tick. But it might not start until nearer the end.

If you send Note Off at 1.1.0299, the end of the note can be considered as at the end of that tick. But it might end nearer the start.

That's about as accurate as you can get. So, in my opinion, the duration should be considered 0000 to 0299 inclusive: i.e. 300 ticks.

However, in practical terms, if you want notes at 0000, 0300, 0600 and "no space" between them, then you have to send the note offs at 0299 and 0599. If MU.LAB's doing that, there isn't a problem. (It's just that it says the length is 299 when I think it should say 300.)

janamdo · Post by **janamdo** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:59 am

The "midi tick" is not so easy to understand..and you must now all ins and outs .. so i copied some text ..see below

MIDI tick

In the MIDI protocol each MIDI event carries two pieces of information: 1) the MIDI ticks, which show when the MIDI device should do something; and 2) a MIDI message, which shows what the MIDI device should do.

The MIDI tick is a length of time, the size of which is defined by the time division of the MIDI song. The number of MIDI ticks in a MIDI event is the total amount of time that must pass from the previous MIDI event so that the current MIDI event is executed.

The length of the one tick is defined by the time division of the MIDI song, and one tick could be any length of time. For example, a one tick could be equal to 8,000 microseconds. Then, if a MIDI event contains the value "2", denoting two ticks, it will be executed 2 * 8,000 = 16,000 microseconds after the previous event.

Thus, the time at which a MIDI event occurs depends on three things: 1) the number of ticks that the event itself carries; 2) the time of the previous event; and 3) the time division of the whole MIDI song. If the previous event in the example above occurred at 1 second from the start of the song, this event will occur at 1.016 seconds from the start of the song.

A MIDI event that carries zero ticks is executed at the same time as the previous event in the MIDI sequence, unless it is an event that should not be executed at all, such as a meta event. Meta events normally carry zero ticks, but will usually also be placed at the very beginning of the sequence, and will not be sent over MIDI ports for execution.

MuTools · Post by **MuTools** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:53 am

pljones wrote:
mutools wrote:Technically, a note is a combi of a note-on and a note-off, cfr the MIDI.
Agreed.
mutools wrote:If a note has a length of 300 ticks, the note-on is sent at 1.1.0000, the note-off is sent at 1.1.0300.
Disagreed. Ticks have duration. In MIDI terms, the processing happens during the tick, not at the start of the tick.

If you send Note On at 1.1.0000, the start of the note can be considered as the beginning of that tick. But it might not start until nearer the end.

If you send Note Off at 1.1.0299, the end of the note can be considered as at the end of that tick. But it might end nearer the start.

That's about as accurate as you can get. So, in my opinion, the duration should be considered 0000 to 0299 inclusive: i.e. 300 ticks.

However, in practical terms, if you want notes at 0000, 0300, 0600 and "no space" between them, then you have to send the note offs at 0299 and 0599. If MU.LAB's doing that, there isn't a problem. (It's just that it says the length is 299 when I think it should say 300.)

I'm sorry man but i just can't follow. I have no idea what you mean.

robenestobenz · Post by **robenestobenz** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:01 pm

Bonteburg wrote:It all seems pretty academic to me. What would the practical implications/possible problems of such a length difference or gap be? Does MU.LAB somehow not 'do' monophonic synths, but then it does?

Not trying to take sides but I'm really interested because I really don't know all too much about the nuts and bolts of MIDI.

Marco

Like you as an end user I don't really care too much about the inner machinations.

The practical difference here (I.. think..) is that notes which start in the same tick as another note ends won't always work properly with legato or portamento synths -- and this will happen if you quantize two notes that are adjacent at the current grid snap resolution, which is a bug IMO.

liquidsound · Post by **liquidsound** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:08 pm

mutools wrote:
liquidsound wrote:Why is Mulab treating the same note's length differently?
Doesn't this post answer the question:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 60#4048960

?

Hi Jo,
it's not that I do not understand your answer on the above post, actually my following posts are indeed explaining and agree with you.
My question was:
In MuLab, before quantize the Length, the notes are playing fine.
After Quantize Length the notes are playing "Legato", a single long note.

The same notes (the ones quantize) exported and imported in XP or fresh reproduced in XP are not playing "Legato " but are back to single notes.

This means that MuLab is processing a 300+300 etc notes differently than other daws...
In this example MuLab needs a 299 note in order to sound like a 300 note in another daw. Furthermore I found myself needed to overlap notes in XT to reproduce the same "Legato" of MUlab.

So there, is my question. Hopefully I got it clear

MuTools · Post by **MuTools** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:42 pm

Although i didn't plug in the synths you mentioned, i'm quite sure i must give the same answer: It's about the note-on -off priority issue when they occur on the same tick. That's the only issue there is, and i agree it should be improved, it's on the whishlist. Besides this i don't see any issue. That's what i already try to say from the beginning of this topic. It's my humble impression things are overfocussed.

liquidsound · Post by **liquidsound** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:22 pm

mutools wrote:Although i didn't plug in the synths you mentioned, i'm quite sure i must give the same answer: It's about the note-on -off priority issue when they occur on the same tick. That's the only issue there is, and i agree it should be improved, it's on the whishlist. Besides this i don't see any issue. That's what i already try to say from the beginning of this topic. It's my humble impression things are overfocussed.

That's great!
As you know since M3 I am in the process (actually not started yet) of importing all my work in it and this on/off issue FOR SURE is going to show up because the other daws I used have not shown this behavior... yet.
I compose primarily via Pencil so my notes are mostly on the grid and, unless done willingly, there is no silent tick in between them.

Thanks for the whishlist consideration.

TheGuysanIdiot · Post by **TheGuysanIdiot** » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:03 pm

Hi All,

I have had stuff to do that took longer than I expected. It seems this topic has been answered with the comments of others while I have been away.

None the less I have done loads of reading, done lots of experiments and looked at lots of DAWs.

If every one is happy with what has been said on this subject then I will leave it there.

But if anyone would like to know what I have found out I am happy to write more. But it will not really change what has already been written before only it may help to clear things up a bit for those who are still unsure about this MIDI tick stuff etc.

The only reason I write this now is that I said I would be back with more stuff, but as I said above you all seem to have found your way there without extra input from me.

I will say nothing more on this topic unless anyone asks me to.

OZ

MuTools

KVR Audio

Note's Length