Prophet VS sounds with Zebra?

[News From The Sky]

I can't comment on how close Arturia's Prophet V comes to the VS, as I have no experience with the former and only a very little experience playing the latter, but I decided against buying the Arturia software after reading Sound On Sound's review, which as I recall didn't feel it was very authentic.

[hollo]

Zebra already has most of the necessary pieces: XY pads (which just need some controller interaction math to behave like vector joysticks), 16-step wavescanning (would be nice if Z3 could go up to 128 steps), up to four oscillators plus the ability to load single-cycle waves, and extensive modulation including looping envelopes. Dark Zebra has some modeled filters derived from Diva; if Urs modeled the Prophet 5 rev3 at some point we could just borrow the CEM filter (though wavescanning through the SSM would be cool too). As for the imaging artifacts, Zebra has the OSC FX that already do lots of similar things, so it could just be one more OSC FX option (and would be useful for more than VS emulation).

None of this would significantly change the character or feel of Zebra - in fact, if anything it's an organic and logical progression of what Zebra already does, IMO. If Urs wanted to make a dedicated super-wave synth that took all the best bits of PPG, VS, Wavestation, ESQ, DW, etc, I'd be thrilled of course but I don't see that happening.

(And I prefer names that don't predispose listeners to hearing a particular sound, personally. Wavestation is still IMO one of the best named synths ever.)

I agreed all of this. Zebra has almost every modul or parts to do this perfectly.
It's almost the real nature of Zebra.

Up to 128 step would blow up Urs mind, but a case specific bit reducer OscFx, plus a tuned filter would be
very nice to handle all of this wonderfully

Perfectly agreed with your list too: all the best bits of PPG, VS, Wavestation, ESQ, DW, etc, I'd be thrilled of course !!!

[Ingonator]

Forgot to mention that Synthmaster 2.6 has a vector oscillator module (for up to 4 single cycle waveforms) and 2D envelopes for vector modulation.

The proper VS single cycle waves would be needed for this. Could be possible to get them from e.g. Arturia Prophet V.


Ingo

[hollo]

As the wavetables are free everyone could have access to them.


Ingo

Can you share them Ingo?
You said something about Eq-ing and processing them to single cycle waves, was not single cycle before?

Anyhow i would be very happy if you could send them to me /unprocessed/processed ,:help:
i would try how it works in Zebra.


2. Question: looks like Arturia V use the same filter for the VS as for the Prophet?
I don't find separate filter mentioned for VS.
Then we will missing only the special bitreducer OscFx (+Urs mentioned filter) to make this happen in Zebra

[Vectorman]

Have any of you other sound designers (by trade or hobby) been able to get any of those trademark morphable VS patches out of Zebra?

Here's a guy who has posted a video of Prophet VS factory patches played on the Arturia synth. They sound like they transferred quite decently,no?

The sound may not be dead-nuts accurate (it sounds like the Arturia's oscillators are cleaner and exhibiting less artifacts than the original), but the essence of those sounds I remember well from when I had a real VS is there. At first, I didn't realize it was an Arturia-only demo and thought I was hearing the real thing and that it was going to be an A/B comparison vid. I wouldn't mind having some of those sounds at my disposal again - Omnisphere has a handful of sampled VS sounds, but the selection is pretty small.

As far as trying to duplicate VS sounds in Zebra with the "wavesofplenty" oscillator set, I had mixed results. I got a halfway-decent version of "Stewkey" but couldn't seem to get "Voices" to sound right. Some of the more heavily morphing stuff, without having patch sheets and knowing what waves were being used and what vector envelope settings for certain patches, it would take a lot of trial and error to get in the ballpark.

[Spitfire31]

The sound may not be dead-nuts accurate (it sounds like the Arturia's oscillators are cleaner and exhibiting less artifacts than the original)…

Perhaps that's the reason why I dumped the, IMO, too-polite-and-shmooth Arturia V demo.

I used to have a VS (keyboard version) but sold it due to OS bugs that were never fixed and the fact that you had to make sure that the synth was placed on an absolutely flat surface - the slightest twist in the chassis would activate aftertouch!

The only virtual instrument that succeded (past tense) to emulate the h/w VS was, IMO, Vector Sector, created by one of the original Sequential engineers behind the vs, Joshua Jeffe.

Sadly, Vector Sector (Win and Mac) never made it to Intel and Universal Binary (the only reason I hang on to my venerable Mac G5).

So, the field is open for a truly faithful VS emu!

/Joachim

[Ingonator]

Can you share them Ingo?
You said something about Eq-ing and processing them to single cycle waves, was not single cycle before?

Two different things. First the Blofeld wavetable is available here:
http://synth.stromeko.net/Downloads.html
Those are wavetable and no single waveforms.

On the other hand i just sampled the VS waveforms from Arturia Prophet V (ROM waveforms 32-125) and edited them to have single cycle waveforms.
For those i indeed used an EQ (PSP NobleQ to be precise) which adds a better low end. I also used the Tube at the output of NobleQ.

Just started using those waveforms with the vector oscillator (+ 2D envelope) in Synthmaster 2.6. Not sure if it really sounds better than Arturia Prophet V but i just started.

Not sure if it is allowed to share those waveforms in public, i would guess yes...

Doing them without EQ would mean sampling and editing all waveforms again.

I had created hundreds of my own waveforms with e.g. DNR Wave Designer (many of them inc,luded with Rayblaster or the Futuron expansion for it) and some VS waveforms seem to sound quite close to some of them.


Currently Arturia Prophet V seems to be the only native emulation (not DSP based) that is both close to the real thing (including sysex import) and is still available (opposing to vector sector, Augur and others).
The free Reaktor ensembles available don't really seem to nail it.


Ingo

[hollo]

Thanks for the link Ingo!

How do you edit to single cycle?
Just pick some singles in an editor and save
them? Besides eq.

Cheers

[Ingonator]

Thanks for the link Ingo!

How do you edit to single cycle?
Just pick some singles in an editor and save
them? Besides eq.

Cheers

I use Steinberg Wavelab Elements 7 to extract a single cycle fro ma longer sample (usually i use render 1 bar in Ableton Live). The loop finder/editor is used for this. Normally i use a zero-crossing at the beginning and the end and try to have the part of the waveform with the biggest amplitude at the beginning. For almost all my single cycle waveforms (Also those i created myself) i use a pitch that leads to a length of around 30 up 60 milliseconds (normally at C1 but sometimes with octave shift to lower pitch). Shorter ones usually don't work really good for Bass sounds .



UPDATE:

This is a first attempt to reprogram the "Pacbell" VS preset included in Arturia Prophet V with Synthmaster 2.6 and it's vector oscillator (using the VS waveforms i got from Prophet V):

Prophet V + Synthmaster Prophet VS comparison 01

In each example first Prophet V and then Synthmaster is played.

This is a first attempt and i'm sure it's possible to get them closer. Also thought about using the multi-stage envelopes of Synthmaster instead of the ADSR ones (like in this example). Synthmaster also got freely adjustable slopes for each envelope step which could be used to adjust them further.

I have also added Modwheel modulation for the Attack + Release value and the amount of an Ensemble FX (Attack is 0 and no FX at MW 0 position) to transform the patch into a "Glass Pad" sound.

This patch does not use vector position modulation but it's possible using a 2D envelope (up to 32 steps/stages).

Sorry that i could not help with a Zebra patch as i sold that 2 years ago. Was mostly due to problems with the interface ( a bit tricky to use IMO) and not really about the sound. Could try to check with the demo version.



PS:

For Kontakt 5 users the new Kontakt instrument fro mSynth Magic could be interesting:
http://www.synthmagic.co.uk/vectorx.htm

I still use Kontakt 4 so i could not use this. I got several othe Synth Magic instruments and participtared on some of them in terms of presets (and a few samples for Phobos too, e.g, the Hypersaw samples).
Want to ask Steve if he got samples of the single VS waveforms...



Ingo

[Ingonator]

Just noticed that i still got the discontinued Augur VSt on my HD:

http://www.kvraudio.com/product/augur_b ... ix/details

Just rendered a few of the waveforms of Augur and compared them to the corresponding Prophet V waveforms.

The Prophet waveforms seem to be more "polished" and also seem to miss some "details".


Ingo

[snigelx]

Thanks for all of the infos Ingo. A lot to ponder. Waiting for Urs or Howard to pipe in about this subject and offer some insight, as it relates to future Zebra or ZebraHZ potential in this area. Cheers!

[Howard]

Urs might like to chime/pipe in (he owns a Wavestation). I'm not particularly interested in VS myself, but if somebody explains the advantages over morphable wavetables, I'm all ears!

[snigelx]

Urs might like to chime/pipe in (he owns a Wavestation). I'm not particularly interested in VS myself, but if somebody explains the advantages over morphable wavetables, I'm all ears!

Good Afternoon Well, for my ears, the VS wavetables and the result of modulating them, have quite a different quality than what you hear in Zebra or PPG, Korg, whathaveyou. You could say it's the same fascination one has with different filters. It is just different Q and such int this case it is something about the quantisation or transposition. I really don't know. If you read the article I linked to above from one of the engineers on the project, there was a lot of guesswork involved over modelling the behavior of other WT synths. If it is a quality of sound..a certain timbre that you don't find anywhere else then it becomes fascinating to replicate it if possible...but you guys got the experience and modelling know-how over there at the shop so it could be a simply complex combo of your design expertise with some programming tricks in the backend of the synth to make such timbres possible.

[Ingonator]

Urs might like to chime/pipe in (he owns a Wavestation).

Got a Wavestation EX since around 2005 and had the rack versions earlier (in 2004). Also got the plugin.

As mentioned in my first comment here te Wavestation could be a nice VS substitution. Anyway with the lack of an anlog modeled filter (the plugin got a resonant filter) it could sound quite different to a VS.

Besides that for "typical" digital sounds the Wavestation is pure heaven.
Recently i noticed that for the more "raw" or analog like sounds the hardware Wavestation still sounds better IMO.

In the ROM of the Wavestation the VS waveforms 35-125 are included. 32-34 are standard waveforms like Sine, Saw and Square which are covered by other waveforms in the Wavestation ROM.
There are both commercial and free versions of VS soundbanks for the Wavestation. AFAIK one of them was avaiable as a ROM card.

The FXs in the WS (especially in the EX version and the racks) are sounding very nice too which includes e.g. the Chorus (differnt Chorus versions).


PS:
Close to finish the VS single cycle waveforms from Augur (those from Prophet V are already finished). The waveforms in Augur seem to be less "polished" and also have more details than the ones in Prophet V (for example 2 or more "peaks" where is only one in Prophet V).

It could be interesting to compare the waveforms from the Wavestation too.
Maybe those are even better than the other two versions. With lack of a real VS i could not do the same with the "real thing".


Ingo

[Howard]

... the article I linked to above from one of the engineers on the project

Can't find the link in this thread - could you re-post?