FR (WITHDRAWN) - A global KVR Challenges sub board

[Compyfox]

Well this is the thing... the Mix Challenge is in the "Production Techniques" section - fitting as well.

Yet I constantly get comments like "I didn't see it before" (it's pinned), "never heard of it" (pinned, tweeted about, retweeted by KVR, BPB, Rekkerd). And that's month past my original FR. And this also clealy shows: sub 10(!) participants monthly, barely any new track to mix (and I bump the corresponding threads in Music Cafe every other day - those people that promised to contact me, never did!). Honestly, I really don't know what to do anymore than bump up the "public relations" even more or start writing songs myself.


Else - it looks like we have a stalemate in this thread.

[bjporter]

Okie dokie, finally got a chance to reply in full

1) There a few misconceptions about the One Synth Challenge (OSC) here in this thread, so I'll clear those up first:

• but now that we officially have three(!) running competitions on KVR

  The OSC isn't official actually. It was founded, and still runs entirely from grass roots / volunteers, and not affiliated in any way to the KVR staff / admins. Interesting fact: Our mysterious founder was banned soon after founding it for offering an unlicensed prize. It started off rough and very unofficial.
  

  We currently have "One Synth Challenge", running in the instrument section (buried in the mass of plugins threads)

  From what I understand - you mean that the finished OSC threads are buried in a mass of plugins threads. We have everything very well archived on our site (full downloads, streaming player, results information, full info, thread links) for each month, so I have never heard a complaint that the old threads are hard to find. General discussion thread is also easy to find from our main threads, past threads, and website, so I've never heard a problem with that. The general thread isn't as active either, and not hard to find.
  
  I've actually never once had a problem finding a past thread by using google to search. It is amazingly good.
  

  These are fun games on KVR, and draw attention to this board.

  and
  

  Those that bring just as much traffic to the page (the OSC alone is very popular and offers a load of exposure - for over 6 years at this point!).

  Firstly, we are never about popularity, or gaining lots of users. Our goal isn't to be a big commercial contest, or famous thing, it's just to do what we do.
  
  Secondly, the OSC doesn't draw attention or exposure to KVR and its not popular (small # of participants). We're a totally different thing. What the OSC does is offer a fun experience for people already browsing the instruments forum, or who have heard of the challenge somewhere on the internet. Does it bring a lot of new users / views to KVR? If you consider we get a few dozen participants per month (sometimes up to 80, sometimes as few as 8 ), it doesn't seem so, and that's not really the point. The OSC is not set up to be a large contest (the kind that would bring in real attention / exposure), and wouldn't work well being a large contest - it's well suited for smaller, niche synth enthusiasts (it's like a winter triathlon vs. a summer city's 5k jog). I've never done advertising, other than posting to music friends on a few social networks (BTW there is no official OSC twitter or facebook, etc), and rarely do that now. We wait for sponsors to come to us as well, we don't ask for them. If we're doing something special we might ask about it, but that's rare.
  
  I very much agree with do_androids_dream when he said:
  

  • My take on this is that, conversely to Compy's assertion that this will '3) draw even more attention to KVR Audio', I think it will actually lessen traffic and activity around the challenges if it has its own forum area. The only reason I glance into the challenge threads is because they happen to be in the most heavily used parts of the forum - ie. they're in my eyesight stuck at the top of the forum whilst I'm looking at other threads there. If they had a sub forum I would be less likely to look into it if it initially doesn't interest me that much.

  Lastly, the OSC doesn't need more OSC specific discussion threads. As stated abvoe, we have a thread per month, and a general discussion thread. The only active threads are the current month, and the last month (which are stickied). Any more discussion would seem better in other more relevant parts of KVR (like how to make this sound... or how to mix xyz).

2) Misc things

• So instead of making a mess of the other subsections or having to constantly use the search function to find the challenges, let's port them to one unified place so that everyone(!) can find them.

  I gather that you're referring to past challenges, and again they are well organized on our site, which is linked from the current challenge, and easy to find on google.
  
  So in that case, it's only a mess in the sense that finding any specific set or series posts would seem like a mess, as the forum is so massive, but not set up for this kind of purpose. I can't recall ever hearing any complaints like this about the OSC, so maybe its more of a problem for the Mix Challenge.
  
  Again, google search is amazing when you need to find something - works every time for me when I need a specific thing from an old OSC thread.
  
  

  Win-Win for everyone:
  - the hosts: moderating, administration (pinning, renaming, moving, splitting, closing)
  - the board admins (off the hook of administrating anything)

  I don't see the win/win here. Other than asking for stickies, we've called on mods once when things got heated. D.H. Miltz is always lightning quick on the stickies, and that only happens once a month. I'd gather to say it takes a handful of minutes or less too. As for the admins, I don't think they are involved with the OSC in any way, so I'm not sure they are doing any extra work. I don't think I've ever talked to an admin, just a mod (D.H. Miltz).
  
  That's why I agree with these:
  

  • Not sure I see why you'd suggest separate mods.

    But they'd still have to deal with those pressing matters in these forums anyways. Not convinced that a few pins/unpins are a good justification for creating Yet More Moderators. 

  For a small while I thought having mod status would be beneficial only in that I thought (wrongly) I was bugging D.H. Miltz every month. Now that I see how much stuff the mods do, the OSC is a tiny little blip I think in terms of their workload.
  

  On the other hand, we challenge hosts have a similar workload like companies (managing the challenge, handling questions in both public/private, contacting people, making deals, "public relations", etc) are not seen as "worthy enough" to be just as "elevated" as companies?

  I can't speak for the Mix Challenge, but for the OSC, the admin workload is VERY small compared to a company - and most of that is either just waiting for something to upload / finish, or sorting out nuances / errors / issues with people's submissions, etc.
  
  

  whyte, sometimes you just really piss me off with your "I'm against it, just because..." behavior, you know that?!.....Is this because you refuse to see me as a threat in a possible "powerful position" (read: mod status, for ONE SUB BOARD, and that sub board section only), or you're thinking "nobody should have this power"? Because the latter war clearly abused several times so far - and not only towards me personally (see KVR's company history).

  Not familiar with KVR politics, and will be taking a neutral stance on these things. The OSC is independent / grass roots, and we're just thankful that KVR allowed us to grow in the way we have throughout the past 5+ years. Hopefully you guys can work things out.
  
  
  

  But having them at a global space would definitely make sense.

  It may, and it may not. I'm leaning toward the later for a few reasons. Firstly, it seems to repeat the problem you had before: How is the guy who looks only at the market place, or hardware forum see the Mix Challenge?
  
  Unless the new system is equally easy to see the contests / challenges for relevant KVR users, I can't see anything but down hill.

3) This may be a square peg in a round hole situation

• I think the idea of moving the competitions / etc into a dedicated creates a whole new set of (practical) problems, namely views (It is very convenient for people to see what the synth of the month is when browsing the instruments forum, and even as a reminder). The way it works now may not be perfect, but it works well from our experience (and the Music Cafe I think), and should work well for the Mix Challenge.
  
  So more directly: Compyfox, I love your passion for the Mix Challenge, and I think it will be a great success, but I'm not sure that your suggestions in this thread will help all that much, and may hurt it.
  
  It takes time to do what you're doing. The OSC started really small, and actually if you look at our growth on average per month - it's peanuts. But each peanut added up for 5 years worked out pretty well.

[whyterabbyt]

whyte, sometimes you just really piss me off with your "I'm against it, just because..." behavior, you know that?!

Well, that's possibly because you're not thinking hard enough to work out what the actual reason might be. I get that you're not good at seeing beyond your own point of view, though.

With this paragraph, you also defend companies that stepped WAY BEYOND their boundaries

No, I didnt, thats nonsense. Keep your strawman shite to yourself and you'll do a damn site better in the debate.
And, honestly, stop derailing your own topic to air old grievances. It doesnt do you any favours.

On the other hand, we challenge hosts have a similar workload like companies (managing the challenge, handling questions in both public/private, contacting people, making deals, "public relations", etc) are not seen as "worthy enough" to be just as "elevated" as companies? Those that bring just as much traffic to the page (the OSC alone is very popular and offers a load of exposure - for over 6 years at this point!).

So where is the (crucial) difference from a One-Man Army selling samples/presets/plugins and asking for a company forum at KVR, and the representatives of a challenge?

Strawman, again. Im not oposed to the challenges getting an umbrella forum, Im opposed to someone getting moderator status merely because they organise one.

I see that the OSC people have a rather different opinion from you. Guess you forgot to solicit opinion from the people you purport to speak for, eh? Doesnt bode well.

On the other hand, the informal challenge forums are just that, informal. They're certainly not formal enough to require a whole slew of new mods, no matter how long the list of rules some of them appear to have. 'fun games' dont need special moderation.

Honest question:
Is this because you refuse to see me as a threat in a possible "powerful position" (read: mod status, for ONE SUB BOARD, and that sub board section only), or you're thinking "nobody should have this power"? Because the latter war clearly abused several times so far - and not only towards me personally (see KVR's company history).

Personal issue - or a global thing?
And no prancing around the topic, please. Because I have a feeling where this is leading to.

Both, in the opposite order of priority to the one you posited them in. Primarily, the task doesnt need a moderator, and I dont think another moderator position should be created solely for it.

And no, I dont think you'd be a good moderator. The best moderation has a light hand; you dont. You clearly also cant keep your old grudges out of a simple forum request, that doesnt bode well.

Again - the "moderation rights" are merely there to handle threads in the first place, in a transparent manner. If there are three people that handle a challenge, however only one is available, yet a thread needs a topic title change - these "moderators" could do that themselves. It doesn't matter if it's a "fun game" or an "informal challenge". We also have rules, we also have to handle users, etc.

Again, the site mods can and already do handle this. There is no need for new mods, so why are you so focussed on it.

Which is more important to you, the umbrella folder or moderation status?

Banning is (to my knowledge) first discussed in the "moderator section" (though I experienced first hand that this can be "ignored/evaded"). And if you've ever used a PHPbb or anything similar, rights can be limited. In a very detailed manner even.

If you raise your voice against activating "ban rights" from specific boards - all the power to you and definitely noted. But in that case, I also vote for removing the very same rights from ALL moderators on KVR Audio up to the two current known/active "global ones" (meaning: no "substitute mod" or "company mod" should have this power). As everything else ensues a possible power abuse (as this can be clearly "abused" and the discussion for kicking/temp-ban/perm-ban can be evaded - company "mods" have this power, again - speaking from experience).

Again, you're hijacking your own thread with a different agenda, which belongs in an entirely separate thread. This doesnt bode well.

So if we're really touching this topic, especially on "no user/company should have more power than a regular user", only the Grande-Mods and Admins should have this type of power in this case. PERIOD!

You do realise how childish that 'blah blah blah PERIOD' style of post is, dont you?

I however would rather love to know a date when we have a dedicated sub-forum (with individual folders), and then really kick things off with the challenges (seeing as I've been bringing this FR up since June 2014 now),

Yes, June 2014, a whole 12 minutes after creating the first Mix contest thread.

rather than wasting pages on "opinions on hypothetical power abuse".

Didnt you just spend several paragraphs ranting about that?

Let us handle that, once it actually happens (like the last couple of times, where no "fingers-smacks" where handled either).

Nah, lets handle it in advance, for a change. An easy way would be to not have unnecessary local moderators.

And since the OSC people dont seem to think it would serve them well, well, maybe its not such a great idea in the first place. Some of the points bjporter raises probably apply to the Music Cafe competition too; I have no idea how the Music Cafe competition is now, but to be honest, we were perfectly happy there when it first started, maybe the whole thing is unnecessary in the first place.

I think perhaps, in the light of that, there needs to be a more compelling argument 'for'. Spiralling off into comments about me, or random company forum moderators hasnt really helped you make a solid focussed case.

[Compyfox]

Okie dokie, finally got a chance to reply in full

...

3) This may be a square peg in a round hole situation

• I think the idea of moving the competitions / etc into a dedicated creates a whole new set of (practical) problems, namely views (It is very convenient for people to see what the synth of the month is when browsing the instruments forum, and even as a reminder). The way it works now may not be perfect, but it works well from our experience (and the Music Cafe I think), and should work well for the Mix Challenge.
  
  So more directly: Compyfox, I love your passion for the Mix Challenge, and I think it will be a great success, but I'm not sure that your suggestions in this thread will help all that much, and may hurt it.
  
  It takes time to do what you're doing. The OSC started really small, and actually if you look at our growth on average per month - it's peanuts. But each peanut added up for 5 years worked out pretty well.

Valid arguments given.

I think I'll need to massively romp up the promotion on our end then (again... sadly). And ignore the comments "uhm... I've only heard of it now, it's hard to find".




Now on to whyte:

I will ignore most of your... "commenting". I already knew where this was going and the same blinders you say that I have (personal grudges/agenda/etc) seems to apply to you just as much. If not worse even. For you (and a handful of other people I rather not mention), there seems to be nothing else - it's like a sugar rush, some even fall back to personal insults. This is the reason why I barely post on KVR anymore and mainly focus on the MC only.

Maybe you should think about THAT as well. It's just "not fun" anymore. Or as you liked to call it over and over in this post... "it doesn't bode well" - definitely not. Maybe think about that, outside of your personal universe, as well.

That just as a side note.



Still...

With this paragraph, you also defend companies that stepped WAY BEYOND their boundaries

No, I didnt, thats nonsense. Keep your strawman shite to yourself and you'll do a damn site better in the debate.
And, honestly, stop derailing your own topic to air old grievances. It doesnt do you any favours.

You brought this up in the first place. "oooh, Compyfox is at it again". Don't say "don't derail your own thread" if you started the chain reaction yourself.

Oh wait... pro-left wing thinking "I'm against it, because you're in favor of it // I'm right, you're wrong - STFU". Silly me.

I see that the OSC people have a rather different opinion from you. Guess you forgot to solicit opinion from the people you purport to speak for, eh? Doesnt bode well.

The OSC people do this way longer than I do (or we rather - we're still three people behind the scenes, however I'm currently the most active one, else the MC would have been over long ago). So they bound to have a different opinion. And this is more than appreciated, welcome even.

I can't speak from 5+ years of experience yet, but over 1,5 years (including all planning stages and "vacation times" - I do not count the original "Mastering Challenge" in the Effects forum, where I was also a part of). Furthermore - we're not the same people. So different opinions are bound to happen. Yet NOBODY of them attacked my thinking because "reasons" or "I don't like you being in such a position". They argumented based upon their experience with the challenges. Not an outside person that "doesn't like your face".

Personal issue - or a global thing?
And no prancing around the topic, please. Because I have a feeling where this is leading to.

Both, in the opposite order of priority to the one you posited them in. Primarily, the task doesnt need a moderator, and I dont think another moderator position should be created solely for it.

And no, I dont think you'd be a good moderator. The best moderation has a light hand; you dont. You clearly also cant keep your old grudges out of a simple forum request, that doesnt bode well.

Likewise!

You wouldn't be a good moderator "either" due to similar reasons. You literally haunt people, rile up threads, twist and turn words of people to ultimately have a better leverage in your favor. And you do this in every other thread!


I still stand my ground that only the Grande Mods and Admins should have the power to perm ban and lock out people. What happened in recent years with certain companies was and still is not okay. I definitely do not support this. And since it got brought up by you in the first place - this is not derailing or some sort of "different agenda" at all. Just an opinion - which I did bring it up several times throughout the recent months, via PM to the admins as well. It just happens to be repeated in here. What a coincidence.

Yet it's another form of "vendetta"/grudge again. Right...

I however would rather love to know a date when we have a dedicated sub-forum (with individual folders), and then really kick things off with the challenges (seeing as I've been bringing this FR up since June 2014 now),

Yes, June 2014, a whole 12 minutes after creating the first Mix contest thread.

Which was still after WEEKS(!) of planning and I also had this idea to really kick things off for ALL challenges on this board. Not to mention that for months this thread in Side Stuff was abandoned as well.

And since the OSC people dont seem to think it would serve them well, well, maybe its not such a great idea in the first place. Some of the points bjporter raises probably apply to the Music Cafe competition too; I have no idea how the Music Cafe competition is now, but to be honest, we were perfectly happy there when it first started, maybe the whole thing is unnecessary in the first place.

I think perhaps, in the light of that, there needs to be a more compelling argument 'for'. Spiralling off into comments about me, or random company forum moderators hasnt really helped you make a solid focussed case.

Again, you started this in the first place (the argument on "moderators" and "personal agendas").

But else...

I think there should be indeed something done about the challenges in a positive way. Especially if they are to stay in their respective folders. The OSC is basically running by itself, the MCSC is running under the radar. I can personally speak for the MC that I bust my rear end off to keep it running just barely. And I'm in constant touch with the OSC and MCSC (else the so called "campaign thread" for the MC wouldn't be in the Music Cafe).

What else can be done without "hurting" each other - I don't know.

But I think the retweets are already a good start (I'd love to know who is behind the KVR Twitter Account), and I also like the idea of BJPorter cross-linking over to us (do people even read the whole announcement post? Especially if it barely changes?). I think I should implement that in future challenge threads.



Other than that - I think the only next logical step is(!) a dedicated challenge web-page (see OSC). And I did try to stay away from that extra workload. Oh well.


Thanks for the input however - looks like the FR wasn't the best of ideas after all.

[whyterabbyt]

A ton of stuff redacted because I really cant be bothered with the pathetically transparent 'you're only disagreeing because its personal' shite.

Except for this.

With this paragraph, you also defend companies that stepped WAY BEYOND their boundaries

No, I didnt, thats nonsense. Keep your strawman shite to yourself and you'll do a damn site better in the debate.
And, honestly, stop derailing your own topic to air old grievances. It doesnt do you any favours.

You brought this up in the first place. "oooh, Compyfox is at it again". Don't say "don't derail your own thread" if you started the chain reaction yourself.

Mentioning other company forums? No, you're lying about that plain and simple.

You started that, here
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 3#p6317563

The same could be questioned for "company sub-boards", no
Look at the history of what happened to some companies, how they used "their powers", etc.?

Feel free prove me wrong by quoting anything I said about company forums in my whole previous two posts prior to that one. If you can, I'll apologise.
Bet you wont apologise if its not there, though. Goalpost move expected.

[trimph1]

Moving goalposts is the game here.

[V'ger]

I however would rather love to know a date when we have a dedicated sub-forum (with individual folders), and then really kick things off with the challenges (seeing as I've been bringing this FR up since June 2014 now),

Yes, June 2014, a whole 12 minutes after creating the first Mix contest thread.

Which was still after WEEKS(!) of planning and I also had this idea to really kick things off for ALL challenges on this board.

TBPF, for a regular KVRer to press for a major change for all the other (well established) competitions here without even checking with those makes your motives more than questionable. You didn't do the most basic of checks with others even though you surely knew this was a most important point, yet you had everything from subforums to mods arrangement layed out? And all for 'everyone's' benefit, right? The argumentation used for OSC was obviously contrived.

Even if it was only to promote your own mixing competition and not just yourself, there are many steps that would be logical to take before wanting an (likely irreversible) experiment done for the whole competition scene and be willing to sacrifice the success of others. Asking to be moved to the effects forum, putting up a web page etc etc - yet there has been no mention or evidence of these things until the web page now at the end.

It's all quite revealing.

Even if you 'withdraw' your FR now, you may already have set things in motion with Ben and that might be it.

Like I said in the earlier post, there's no doubt OSC will be hurt by a move, and as it's been a lot of effort for years building up the OSC to what it is, it's frankly a bit annoying to see someone from outside playing with its foundation to promote their agenda not related to OSC at all.

[Compyfox]

Moving goalposts is the game here.

Hello! Haven't seen you in quite a while. How have you been?!

A ton of stuff redacted because I really cant be bothered with the pathetically transparent 'you're only disagreeing because its personal' shite.

And now we're down to the usual-usual, including insulting. "Who said what? Where is the proof? Quote it!"
Not the least surprised.

Mentioning other company forums? No, you're lying about that plain and simple.

You started that, here
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 3#p6317563

The same could be questioned for "company sub-boards", no
Look at the history of what happened to some companies, how they used "their powers", etc.?

Feel free prove me wrong by quoting anything I said about company forums in my whole previous two posts prior to that one. If you can, I'll apologise.
Bet you wont apologise if its not there, though. Goalpost move expected.

I don't need this sh*t from you.

The quote you're currently giving is an answer from me to your thread commentary earlier:

Not convinced that a few pins/unpins are a good justification for creating Yet More Moderators.

I then brought up that other companies would not need that either, and some clearly abused this already. As a counter argument to your argumentation. Which in turn spawned this:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 6#p6317586

I dont get your point apart from re-re-re-reairing an old grievance once more again. The company forums are moderated by company representatives because they're company forums.

Yet so called "representatives" should also stick to board given rules - one of them being "be respectful to each other".

So in short - you've been yanking a specific chain, and then sh*t hit the fan. "Personal agenda" , "grievance", "vendetta" - three words that REALLY trigger my anger as of late.

So no, I did NOT derail this thread in the first place, "whyte".
I merely answered to the commentary.

TBPF, for a regular KVRer to press for a major change for all the other (well established) competitions here without even checking with those makes your motives more than questionable. You didn't do the most basic of checks with others even though you surely knew this was a most important point, yet you had everything from subforums to mods arrangement layed out? And all for 'everyone's' benefit, right? The argumentation used for OSC was obviously contrived.

Well no, I'm not speaking for "everyone's benefit" or "in your place" - it was an idea set into the room to further discuss. And it has been discussed now. With a 1,5 year delay.

But still - valuable points given as pro/contra. More contra than pro however.
Acceptable, was worth a try to have a new board feature/section.

And actually, I did talk to D.H. in private. And IIRC, also BJPorter. I also asked for feedback on this through Twitter (as of this moment: removed, since I've withdrawn the FR) and the public KVR section (the MC's Gossip thread in recent weeks, without further outcome).

Even if it was only to promote your own mixing competition and not just yourself, there are many steps that would be logical to take before wanting an (likely irreversible) experiment done for the whole competition scene and be willing to sacrifice the success of others.

Oh please, I sacrifice "my" challenge just as much. It can backfire - but it can also improve things.

Again, it was an idea to "maybe sort things finally, get a dedicated section". it's not a "personal agenda". But it sure is a touchy subject as it seems.

Asking to be moved to the effects forum, putting up a web page etc etc - yet there has been no mention or evidence of these things until the web page now at the end.

It's all quite revealing.

I don't understand where this constant "quite revealing" and "does not bode well" commentary comes from?

I never made a deal out of it that the challenge is a sh*tload of work. Didn't you say that you stopped being involved? So now the workload is on BJPorter. He handles the OSC, the SoundCloud account, the Google Page, Sponsors (and won licenses, or does that satyatunes do that for the OSC still?), etc. So you should KNOW what type of workload that is.

Early on of the MC's existence, we (Uncle E, satYatunes and I) decided a couple of harsh cuts to work against that and have more time for own projects and family, while making the challenge self-sustainable. We don't archive material anymore, we don't do loudness normalization anymore either, we changed the system from "votes" to "client evaluation". Yet we still we have a lot to do behind the scenes.

Do you know what a workload it would be for me(!) currently to also handle a web page? On top of managing possible new clients, giving slight thread moderation, bumping stuff, Twitter, etc? And still I'm getting a smack in the face like "uhm... sorry - I didn't see your thing before".



Which brings me to this comment.

Even if you 'withdraw' your FR now, you may already have set things in motion with Ben and that might be it.

So yeah - I filed this FR.

Ben finally commented on it. So far he hasn't ported (but I'm sure he's reading along). If he's not porting that FR and it's still being discussed internally (something that only D.H., Ben or bluedad can tell us) - we have nothing to fear, no?

Like I said in the earlier post, there's no doubt OSC will be hurt by a move, and as it's been a lot of effort for years building up the OSC to what it is, it's frankly a bit annoying to see someone from outside playing with its foundation to promote their agenda not related to OSC at all.

Seriously - I'm getting f**king annoyed (I wrote it in a non-self-censored manner, yet the board does censor certain words - interesting) at the constant "personal agenda" bullshit.

I filed a FR, since I thought that this is a right/logical evolution for KVR, and for the available challenges. I was green behind my ears - obviously still am according to your remarks. You've made your points (V'ger, BJPorter, D.H.Miltz - whyterabbyt of all people!). I get it.

I'm wrong, it was a f**king stupid idea. So I might as well put my efforts into the challenge and public relations again (Twitter, a planned Mailing List, contacting people DIRECTLY rather than waiting that they come towards us and offer anything), rather than continuing this.

I've not put 1 3/4 years into the Mix Challenge, just to be bitched at from one of the "former admins" of the OSC, because apparently know jack and just jeopardize the "popularity of the challenge(s)".

Among challenge (host) fellows, that low blow is not professional and puts possible future collaborations in peril. And I'd love to collaborate more with the OSC (happened twice so far!).






@Ben [KVR]:
Looks like the votes are in favor of "do not do this".
So this thread has officially ended, no need to create new sub boards and move things. Saves you a lot of work.

[Numanoid]

Personally I think it's time that we get a unified section for this.

Yes, it seems quite an obvious way to go

[whyterabbyt]

And now we're down to the usual-usual, including insulting.

Because its only okay when you do it? From the guy who led with 'You're defending the bad company forums'.
What's next, 'if you dont make me a moderator teh terrorists have won?'

Mentioning other company forums? No, you're lying about that plain and simple.
.
.

Feel free prove me wrong by quoting anything I said about company forums in my whole previous two posts prior to that one. If you can, I'll apologise.
Bet you wont apologise if its not there, though. Goalpost move expected.

The quote you're currently giving is an answer from me to your thread commentary earlier:

Not convinced that a few pins/unpins are a good justification for creating Yet More Moderators.

So you're claiming I 'derailed it' by disagreeing with you that we needed more moderators. That figures.

I then brought up that other companies would not need that either, and some clearly abused this already. As a counter argument to your argumentation. Which in turn spawned this:

Yes, you brought up the thing that was the derail (company forums, which has only ever been your own specific issues with specific company moderators) that Im saying you brought up, and yet you said, literally "You brought this up in the first place."

Mind you, you're the guy who used 'I dont want to see more moderators' as your basis for accusing me of 'defending companies which stepped beyond their boundaries'.

Youre not good with actual facts, are you?

So in short - you've been yanking a specific chain, and then sh*t hit the fan. "Personal agenda" , "grievance", "vendetta" - three words that REALLY trigger my anger as of late.

So, in classic Compyfox fashion, you airing all your personal grievances and agendas about company forums is because I 'tricked' you into it or something. Yeah right.

So no, I did NOT derail this thread in the first place, "whyte".
I merely answered to the commentary.

Yup, goalposts move, as expected.

It didnt happen, you didnt do it, and even if you did it was all my fault for making you. Uhuh.

[trimph1]

@compyfox.

I would like to see you write more music for the thing as well. Instead of moving goalposts every other post.

[whyterabbyt]

I filed a FR, since I thought that this is a right/logical evolution for KVR, and for the available challenges.

You filed an FR for an umbrella folder for the challenges. However, the second Ben okayed the idea, you suddenly extended that to include non-challenge forums, like the Music Cafe, and started talking about these new forums all needing moderators of their own, specifically the people who organise those challenges ie yourself. You got your cake, and that wasnt enough; you wanted to be in charge of the cake shop.

You got your FR okayed. The objections occurred when you pushed that further, close to the point of an actual powergrab. The fact that you couldnt keep your petty squabble with certain developers out of it was your self-undermining nonsense, and that and everything else is just you playing the martyr because nobody thinks you need more than the cake you said you wanted.

[whyterabbyt]

@compyfox.

I would like to see you write more music for the thing as well. Instead of moving goalposts every other post.

Have you seen the rules for the Mix Challenge? It dont look like 'fun' as I understand that word; six lengthy posts of rules, each longer than the whole set of rules for the Music Cafe, and starts right off with saying that the people in charge are the 'headmasters.' Erm.
Kinda looks like a satire of 'organised fun', but it aint actually satire.
Of course that'll be nothing to do with why there's so few entrants, and just me picking on CompyFox blah blah blah.

[do_androids_dream]

@compyfox.

I would like to see you write more music for the thing as well. Instead of moving goalposts every other post.

Have you seen the rules for the Mix Challenge? It dont look like 'fun' as I understand that word; six lengthy posts of rules, each longer than the whole set of rules for the Music Cafe, and starts right off with saying that the people in charge are the 'headmasters.' Erm.
Kinda looks like a satire of 'organised fun', but it aint actually satire.
Of course that'll be nothing to do with why there's so few entrants, and just me picking on CompyFox blah blah blah.

I put my oar in about this when the idea was being discussed. It's the single biggest thing holding back the whole concept imo and it completely put me off ever partcipating again after I got disqualified from the first one (me and Compy exchanged about that though - all sorted). If the floor was thrown wide open with pretty much no rules (because there are no rules in this game - really - there isn't) I think there would be far more participants. This is how things are run over at Mike Senior's forum. If people make 'mistakes' then more knowledgeable people point it out and discuss solutions, advice etc. - that in itself generates discussion.

[Compyfox]

And now we're down to the usual-usual, including insulting.

Because its only okay when you do it? From the guy who led with 'You're defending the bad company forums'.
What's next, 'if you dont make me a moderator teh terrorists have won?'

That clearly drifts it into HPC now.

Everything else is "typical whyterabbyt fashion" (to use a specific quote) with twisting and turning words, to get a better ground coverage and show of who is ultimately superior. Not answering that.

You filed an FR for an umbrella folder for the challenges. However, the second Ben okayed the idea, you suddenly extended that to include non-challenge forums, like the Music Cafe, and started talking about these new forums all needing moderators of their own, specifically the people who organise those challenges ie yourself. You got your cake, and that wasnt enough; you wanted to be in charge of the cake shop.

Actually, that is wrong.

The "umbrella folder" was like that right from the start (1st page, 5th post - Jun 2014). And the so called "cake shop" is also a stupid comment from your side. If ever, I only expected (like it's usually happening on KVR) to get a tad more editing rights to properly moderate threads in the Mix Challenge sub-folder. So if Uncle E or satYatunes started a thread, then I can rename it, the same the other way around. Same with pinning, splitting/joining, etc.

Nowhere else!

You got your FR okayed. The objections occurred when you pushed that further, close to the point of an actual powergrab. The fact that you couldnt keep your petty squabble with certain developers out of it was your self-undermining nonsense, and that and everything else is just you playing the martyr because nobody thinks you need more than the cake you said you wanted.

Yeah yeah, you're right, and I'm wrong. I need to be put into my place.
I'll just shut up - I get it already.

*sheesh!*

@compyfox.

I would like to see you write more music for the thing as well. Instead of moving goalposts every other post.

I think I clearly stated at various points throughout the Mix Challenge (and over the course of the recent years of me being on KVR), that I am mainly an Audio Engineer and not a Songwriter. I never said "I'm an excellent songwriter", I haven't written/finished a song in years. And this is just as fine - not everyone needs to be both a Songwriter and an Audio Engineer (if the industry is "insisting" on that - so be it, I'm not fitting into that drawer, neither do I want to be).

We have enough people on KVR alone that could provide material. Hence he "campaign thread" in Music Cafe. Out of this campaign, we got two(!) tracks for 2016 so far. Two out of 20-40+ possible tracks being posted DAILY, in genres we're actually looking for to have some diversity.

Have some more fuel to add to "your" flames/fire? Or do you actually want to contribute? Because if you want to do the latter, and have a song to provide, PM me. If not - your argument is only getting this off-track and doesn't help you anything other than looking like a fool.

Have you seen the rules for the Mix Challenge? It dont look like 'fun' as I understand that word; six lengthy posts of rules, each longer than the whole set of rules for the Music Cafe, and starts right off with saying that the people in charge are the 'headmasters.' Erm.
Kinda looks like a satire of 'organised fun', but it aint actually satire.
Of course that'll be nothing to do with why there's so few entrants, and just me picking on CompyFox blah blah blah.

First and foremost, these rules are to be overhauled (I'm on to that, just need more than an hour per day for this - also to check back with my Challenge fellows, who will give green lights or not to certain changes).

Second, the "headmasters" are the people that "start the challenge, moderate it, handle the licenses, help in the background if things go wrong (consulting, answering questions, etc)", same as the "admin" of the OSC and MCSC. But the person being in ultimate charge, that declares the winners of the Mix Challenge, is the the song provider (unless the song provider vanishes and can't be contacted - happened once - and we had to take action in some form).

If you'd take the actual time to read up on it, you'd see that this is the case for over a year now and we so called "headmasters" only handle the threads, licenses and promotion. But of course, and like usual, this can be laid out by pro-left wing "anti" fractions as "this is scary" and "I'd rather not do this". Once more: "you're against it, just because...".

This is your(!) "goalpost move", as you like to call it.



Regarding the Mix Challenge rules (and this does actually not belong here anymore, yet it is now part of the ongoing discussion):

Some are remnants of the first challenge days (which are clearly tagged as such!), and as mentioned several times (not only in here), I'm on to it to change/fix that ASAP (one prime example is the topic on "Loudness Normalization" - else, the rule set was and still is agreed on from us three challenge hosts). As if the OSC and MCSC never had rule changes (or a long list of "no fun rules" - "no external FX" and "submit to Soundcloud" for the OSC comes to mind!), or ran into issues.

I get it, it has to be "simple", it has to be "fun" and not a bit of a learning curve (the Mix Challenge does have a concept, you know!). Instead, let's make this (once more) personal to get even MORE leverage to prove your point (whatever it is other than "NOPE!" and "you're on a personal agenda!"). "The other challenges are so much better - you are <insert commentary here>", "if you don't simplify it, I won't join - this challenge is BS!" (actual comment I got in recent weeks).

And you know what, I don't care. Because even if these rules seem to be "massive" and "no fun at all" (for you!), this doesn't stop people from joining and having fun. Actually, these rules are appreciated by most participants! And the biggest/best feedback we can get is "I've learned to much during this challenge - thanks for doing this! See you next month". Which happens every single challenge btw, and outweighs the negative vibes.

So instead of having an agonal respiration (in German: "Schnappatmung"), maybe join the Mix Challenge for once and see how simple it actually is. You can also show off your talent, make a personal statement, rather than constantly being a pain in the rear end. The next Mix Challenge (hopefully) starts around the third Advent weekend (around 13th December if things work out fine. I'm currently acquiring a holiday mix from an old song provider. The track will arrive in the last minute - something I've been asking about for over 2 months as well!).



Happy now?
If not, can't help you any further. Sorry.

I put my oar in about this when the idea was being discussed. It's the single biggest thing holding back the whole concept imo and it completely put me off ever partcipating again after I got disqualified from the first one (me and Compy exchanged about that though - all sorted). If the floor was thrown wide open with pretty much no rules (because there are no rules in this game - really - there isn't) I think there would be far more participants. This is how things are run over at Mike Senior's forum. If people make 'mistakes' then more knowledgeable people point it out and discuss solutions, advice etc. - that in itself generates discussion.

This doesn't belong here anymore either, really. Rather in the MC Gossip thread.
But I actually don't now how to take this sort of feedback?

I don't remember anymore why you were disqualified, neither the challenge to be honest (so many things happened in between). But the main disqualifications are due to re-submitting (even though it's not allowed - hence the rule commentary "first mix is final, take an extra day to listen with a fresh set of ears") or breaking the rules in a very harsh matter (like: changing the arrangement, unless allowed by the song provider). Everything else does generate discussion. Actually, I do insist for a couple of challenges now that ALL participants get feedback on their mixes, and not just the ones that go into the next round (will be addressed in the rule set overhaul).

If I'm missing something, please PM me (German or English, doesn't matter to me). Or bring this up in the appropriate thread to further discuss it. This is why it's existing in the first place. Thanks.