Sawstudio goes 64bit

[Zexila]

You are dismissing the efforts of thousands of dedicated programmers and designers who have most certainly improved the state of the art with respect to the user experience and software quality...

and that guys actually have my respect.

[ghettosynth]

Assembler is lowest level programming language so the communication of interface with hardware is super fast and stable.

LOL!

I don't understand what is funny in this sentence?

I know.

[Romantique Tp]

Jumping on the LawrenceF bandwagon, the lack of just basic business knowledge is truly staggering here sometimes. I work on systems that charge thousands and thousands of dollars per seat AFTER buying the core software for hundreds of thousands, and charge 28% and more annual maintenance ... which does not include upgrades. This little niche world of $2 plugins and phone apps is a joke. Hard working, knowledgeable/skilled devs who have spent endless hours slaving over algorithms then getting mocked and/or ridiculed pisses me off sometimes.

Many businesses actually CHOOSE ON PURPOSE to ignore the cheap assed unwashed masses, simply so they don't have to deal with mainstream bullshit. You'd be shocked at the number of millionaires out there that couldn't care less if they ever sell you a $5 widget for your iPad.

We're talking about some old dude selling an overpriced and extremely outdated DAW to other old dudes who don't know better and genuinely believe that it sounds better than other DAWs, not some company selling $50000 spreadsheet programs to the US military or a big company.

[LawrenceF]

Your counter is as much hyperbole as the original argument. Choosing a modern stable DAW because it has useful features and U/I, and ignoring an outdated and outmoded DAW because it is exactly that, is not "chasing shiny toys." You are dismissing the efforts of thousands of dedicated programmers and designers who have most certainly improved the state of the art with respect to the user experience and software quality in your defense of Bob..

I never implied any such thing, that the shiny toys aren't also useful. I myself use a shiny modern product that fits my personal needs.

If you read back what you'll hear me saying is... paraphrasing myself... "not everything fits into the KVR box", that there actually are people out there buying and using that thing, and some other things people here would not have not much use for, because it fits - their - needs. Slagging on those things is really stupid, and slagging on those users is really stupid, and immature, especially if that user has a studio bringing in $2-4k a month, paying bills, and the slagger is in their mom's basement with 7 daws and no real income or result to show from any of them.

Like I wouldn't slag on you if you made a software product I had no use for. On the contrary. Is SAW dated? I suppose that would depend on who you ask. Not everyone on the planet is doing electronic music. It doesn't look to be a good choice for that to me. Otoh, If I had a 48 channel console in my studio and racks of good outboard hardware and needed a reliable daw to track and mix bands, live shows, whatever, I'm sure it's probably as good as any other.

At any rate, sorry if I offended anyone. Was more just saying... "Not everything on the planet was built with, or is being developed with, you specifically or what you need to do, in mind." Like Pyramix. Some things are intentionally built for other people, not the Cubase, Bitwig, Live, Tracktion, Studio One, Logic market.

[Robert Randolph]

These SAWStudio threads are always so much fun.

[ghettosynth]

Your counter is as much hyperbole as the original argument. Choosing a modern stable DAW because it has useful features and U/I, and ignoring an outdated and outmoded DAW because it is exactly that, is not "chasing shiny toys." You are dismissing the efforts of thousands of dedicated programmers and designers who have most certainly improved the state of the art with respect to the user experience and software quality in your defense of Bob..

I never implied any such thing. I myself use a modern product that fits my personal needs.

No, sure you did. I was pointing out your hyperbole. You reduced other people's preferences to "chasing shiny toys." I agree that calling people suckers for buying SAW is hyperbole, but so is contrasting that statement to "chasing shiny toys."

If you read back what you'll hear me saying is... paraphrasing myself... "not everything fits into the KVR box", that there actually are people out there buying and using that thing, and some other things people here would not have not much use for, because it fits - their - needs.

I think that you're misrepresenting other people's criticism here. You are dismissing the experience of others and their ability to see beyond their own needs in their criticism.

I think that it's pretty fair to call out SAW for being both outdated in design AND concept. Maybe you don't have experience developing assembler language software for commercial software, I do. Bob's arguments have been his own brand of hyporbole from the beginning and his own ego is what has constrained his product and kept it in the dark ages.

I can criticize his product without thinking about whether it fits my needs or not.

Slagging on those things is really stupid, and slagging on those users is really stupid, and immature, especially if that user has a studio bringing in $2-4k a month, paying bills, and the slagger is in their mom's basement with 7 daws and no real income or result to show from any of them.

That's an invalid argument. Sure, it's immature, welcome to KVR, this is a place where "people" have conversations and you are going to get a variety of responses. Sometimes people are immature for the fun of it.

But, just because some old punter is using some outdated crap to make a living doesn't form the core of any valid argument for a validation of that outdated crap.

Is SAW dated? I suppose that would depend on who you ask.

No, it actually doesn't. It IS dated. It's U/I software and approach are dated, it's color scheme is dated, the choice to use assembler in that context is dated with respect to software development. It's a dated product and it doesn't matter who you ask. That doesn't mean that some people don't still find it useful. I find the small 32" TV that's in my bedroom very useful, but it's definitely dated at nearly three inches thick. A newer TV would be less dated, but perhaps not more useful to me. However, anyone trying to sell such a TV for the $400 or so that I paid for it would be rightly laughed at today.

Not everyone on the planet is doing electronic music.

Your bias is showing.

Otoh, If I had a 48 channel console in my studio and needed a reliable daw to track bands, live shows, whatever, I'm sure it's probably as good as any other.

Except for the dated interface which might be important. I doubt that it's a valid new choice for virtually anyone today. In any way that you care to measure it, Reaper trumps it hands down. That's including reliability and speed to any degree that it's valuable. I have literally left Reaper running for weeks. SAW wasn't that stable ever. It's a bit of a fanboi thing IMO. We had the four track version of SAW in our studio back in the ISA days when you needed two MQX-32 midi cards to sync it to tape. It wasn't that stable then. People who buy into SAW clearly aren't using other tools in the same way or they'd realize this.

To be clear, I'm not even really trying to tout Reaper here. I only mention it because it really is the new standard for reliability and efficiency. It is essentially developed in the same way that SAW was with the exception that the dev is a little younger so he doesn't buy into assembler mythology.

"Not everything on the planet was built with, or is being developed with, you specifically or what you need to do, in mind."

But, it's your assumption that people are thinking in those terms.

[LawrenceF]

These things tend to go on and on.

The UI is dated compared to Cubase, Sonar, etc, etc, etc, sure. I agree. Otoh, again, maybe most of it's users just don't care about that. Maybe all they care about is it running well and working and maybe most of them have expensive control surfaces. I have no clue. I assume they buy it and use it for logical reasons of their own, not because they were all born yesterday and have never heard of Cubase or Logic.

I tried Mixcraft and pretty much hated it. So what? Not for me. Hated the UI. So what? Other people use it and like it so... why do I care?

The real question (the same question Bob asked the trolls on his forum when he shut it down for awhile a few years back) ... is ...

"With 12-13 modern daws with modern UI's to choose from, a crazy number of good affordable choices, why does anyone who doesn't need it or want to use it anyway even care what he's doing with it or not?"

[Zexila]

At any rate, sorry if I offended anyone.

I accept it, because in the end of the day you really have no clue who I am and based on some prejudice you started throwing assumptions/insults/stabbings making yourself even more immature and unreasonable, I'm not sorry for calling you out on it or for calling out some marketing move the way I did, that move doesn't deserve nothing better from my side at all either, it's insult to customers, if you don't like it or me, just avoid me in future, I will you too. All the best.

[ghettosynth]

These things tend to go on and on.

The UI is dated compared to Cubase, Sonar, etc, etc, etc, sure. I agree. Otoh, again, maybe most of it's users just don't care about that. Maybe all they care about is it running well and working and maybe most of them have expensive control surfaces. I have no clue. I assume they buy it and use it for logical reasons of their own, not because they were all born yesterday and have never heard of Cubase or Logic.

I'm sure that they don't. Just like I don't care about my 32" TV being dated. In fact, I'm pretty much a Ludite about consumer technology. I still have a 5.1 surround system and an un-jail-broken second generation apple TV. It's unlikely that I'll upgrade any of that stuff until it breaks.

The real question (the same question Bob asked the trolls on his forum when he shut it down for awhile a few years back) ... is ...

"With 12-13 modern daws with modern UI's to choose from, a crazy number of good affordable choices, why does anyone who doesn't need it or want to use it anyway even care what he's doing with it or not?"

Those are the risks that you take when you offer a product to the public.

SAW is an anachronism and people love to point out things like that. It's really no different in why it appeals than say the DubTurbo threads. It's fun to mock because things that are mockable are fun to mock.

So one person happens upon SAW, mocks it, and other people respond. That person gets satisfaction from other people laughing along with them. Bob should go back to community college and take a few psychology courses. Why is he bothering to revamp his website if he doesn't care what new customers think? Here comes the cluebat...

Bob does care what new customers think and he does want their money. If he didn't, there'd be no reason to update a decades old website. There are more than a few outdated websites from people who genuinely don't care what the public thinks. He just doesn't want them mocking him on his forum so he closes it down, i.e., he takes his basketball home with him because it's his.

Further, I think that Bob writes code the way that he does because that's how he's always done it. I've encountered plenty of Bobs in my time. Their ideas are often based on outdated prejudices and mythology.

[LawrenceF]

Thanks Zexilla. I meant that apology sincerely.

I think what you say above can apply to most of this conversation since nobody knows Bob, or how much money he makes from it, or why he does what he does with it, or why some people use it, and have no clue who those people are. Like you say, that's throwing insults and stabbings toward the unknown making yourself even more immature or insecure.

I agree. All the best to you too my friend.

[LawrenceF]

Bob does care what new customers think

Of course he does, he'd be a daft businessman not to. What I said and meant is that he doesn't care about people that simply don't like his product at all, the entire concept of his product, the UI for example which isn't going to undergo a huge change at this late date, and want it to be a Cubase clone or something. Those are not his potential customers.

But sure, like every other businessman you do care about people who are genuinely interested in the product. It is what is is, it will never be like Cubase or Logic or similar UI wise.

[ghettosynth]

I think what you say above can apply to most of this conversation since nobody knows Bob, or how much money he makes from it, or why he does what he does with it, or why some people use it, and have no clue who those people are. Like you say, that's throwing insults and stabbings toward the unknown making yourself even more immature or insecure.

Wait a minute now. We don't know how much money he makes but you can't say that he is a total stranger to us anymore than people often draw some conclusions about other KVR members based on their postings. He has made his attitudes about software clear in his public voice for decades. So, yes, we can absolutely draw conclusions from those statements and his public actions. Even if we're wrong, it's just a discussion on KVR.

Also, IIRC, you profiled who you think that the user might be, is it not fair to respond to your use case with a counterpoint?

[LawrenceF]

Yes, you are correct. Good for the goose and all that. It was intentional, what I did there.

At any rate, good talking to you guys. I'll stop answering because if I don't this will never end. Man hug. Happy Holidays to all.

SAW went (or is going) 64-bit, that's cool. That'll come in handy for anyone wanting to use it with 64-bit plugins.

[ghettosynth]

Oh, it's going to keep going alright!

[ghettosynth]

If you don't think that Bob Lentini is just completely out of touch you simply have to watch his "a word from the developer" video on his website. He's blabbing on about how SAWStudio is "very fun stuff" with it's ability to let you tailor the user interface, LOL!

So, let's get down to brass tacks with this. Bob Lentini has been claiming that integer summing is what makes SAW sound better. For those that don't know, you can use integer summing mode in Reaper. Justin Frankel chimes in on that here:

https://forums.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=85526&page=3

I think that the people that buy into this idea are really people that buy into other unvalidated nonsense.

If you want to try it for yourself in Reaper you can find the settings under the advanced tab of the project settings dialog. Load up whatever mix that you want, render using any of the different methods, compare the result blindly.