Nick, is it possible to prevent MacOs to switch to discrete GPU then? Battery drains like crazy for no purpose.nickallen wrote:Well we're a development team of four developers each with different skill sets and specialized areas. The development of the synth and the framework for accelerating graphics via OpenGL are totally different developer projects that are happening in parallel and developed by different developers. Phase-4 in no way made the OpenGL acceleration take longer.connmach wrote:They should ditch that new synth and the philosophy of adding it behind that. Who is waiting for Yet Another Useless Native Synth?
Wasted resources....
Sluggish/sloooow GUI Bitwig 2.23 macOS Sierra 10.12.6
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- KVRist
- 480 posts since 18 Jan, 2017
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- KVRist
- 140 posts since 4 Jun, 2016
is a weird reply, of course it is. is that bad? isn't your reply too?quincy wrote:
...is your personal, subjective opinion.
I mean:
yeah me too.quincy wrote:.. I know producers who ...
Is that an argument? That doesn't mean anything.
I'm not going there.
adios
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- KVRAF
- 1954 posts since 15 Nov, 2003 from London, UK
Hi Connmach,
Yes, of course my opinion is my own and subjective. But you said "people buy..." which implies everyone, not just you. When I put my opinion here, I don't say "we" or "people", I say "I" because it's just me! I can't speak for anyone else!
Anyway I wasn't trying to criticise you, it was more a general observation aimed at the sort of comments I've seen here (and on other forums) many times before over the years. It's not a big deal and it's certainly not worthy of any argument, it's just that some people speak as if they know what we all want and that there is is only one right way. You don'\t want native devices - that's fair enough. But plenty of others do. We'll get a mixture of features and fixes and we all have to be patient to get the thing that we individually feel is "critical" or "top priority".
There have now been 4 major updates in about a year (2.0, 2.1, 2.2 and 2.3 about to drop) so I would hope that people might have some faith that the development team know what they are doing and will continue to add great features. As Nick pointed out, they have a small dev team who work on different parts of the project in parallel so I'm sure we will see both new devices and tools but also core features improved.
There could be some great core features that one sub-team have been working on for ages that will drop with version 2.4 and that might only be 2-3 months away. I'm not even the biggest fan of the subscription model (it's a very tricky issue) but it seems to me that the developers have proved that they can progress the software significantly in one year.
The future is bright!
Yes, of course my opinion is my own and subjective. But you said "people buy..." which implies everyone, not just you. When I put my opinion here, I don't say "we" or "people", I say "I" because it's just me! I can't speak for anyone else!
Anyway I wasn't trying to criticise you, it was more a general observation aimed at the sort of comments I've seen here (and on other forums) many times before over the years. It's not a big deal and it's certainly not worthy of any argument, it's just that some people speak as if they know what we all want and that there is is only one right way. You don'\t want native devices - that's fair enough. But plenty of others do. We'll get a mixture of features and fixes and we all have to be patient to get the thing that we individually feel is "critical" or "top priority".
There have now been 4 major updates in about a year (2.0, 2.1, 2.2 and 2.3 about to drop) so I would hope that people might have some faith that the development team know what they are doing and will continue to add great features. As Nick pointed out, they have a small dev team who work on different parts of the project in parallel so I'm sure we will see both new devices and tools but also core features improved.
There could be some great core features that one sub-team have been working on for ages that will drop with version 2.4 and that might only be 2-3 months away. I'm not even the biggest fan of the subscription model (it's a very tricky issue) but it seems to me that the developers have proved that they can progress the software significantly in one year.
The future is bright!
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- KVRist
- 140 posts since 4 Jun, 2016
With all due respect I don't see the added value of native instruments, because there are so many good alternatives, from expensive to free.nickallen wrote:Well we're a development team of four developers each with different skill sets and specialized areas. The development of the synth and the framework for accelerating graphics via OpenGL are totally different developer projects that are happening in parallel and developed by different developers. Phase-4 in no way made the OpenGL acceleration take longer.connmach wrote:They should ditch that new synth and the philosophy of adding it behind that. Who is waiting for Yet Another Useless Native Synth?
Wasted resources....
To me it seems totally not logical to spend 25% of your resources on them, no matter the speed of development of other sub-projects.
and now I will quit with this forum,
I don't have the time, I have deadlines, I have to finish some MIDI editing in Studio One, what I couldn't do in Bitwig.
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- KVRist
- 140 posts since 4 Jun, 2016
my last one,quincy wrote:Hi Connmach,
But you said "people buy..."
quincy, you are being silly
One can safely say that "People buy a DAW for the DAW."
It's like "People buy a car because they want a car."
There is no one who is buying a DAW for a native synth, no one.
goodbye.
over and out.
flying away gracefully...
Last edited by connmach on Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRian
- 911 posts since 10 Dec, 2013
Phase-4 is great, and has already replaced 3rd party VSTs for various sounds in tracks I've been working on in the beta while learning how to use it.connmach wrote:They should ditch that new synth and the philosophy of adding it behind that. Who is waiting for Yet Another Useless Native Synth?
Wasted resources...
While they are working on yet another invention of the wheel, people are turning away because of lags, other unnecessary problems or missing crucial features.
There are so many other (better) synths out there.
There are not so many cool DAW's like BWS out there.
Priorities...
People buy/upgrade BWS for the DAW not for its instruments.
Ableton's native synths & FX are still a huge draw (Operator is pretty much universally acclaimed), and I've seen various people on both Facebook and KVR requesting stronger native devices in Bitwig.
Not everybody can afford to splash tons of extra cash on VSTs; versatile native devices can relieve their wallet a bit and improve the value proposition of keeping Bitwig updated rather than saving up for externals.
Have you spent much time programming it?
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- KVRian
- 911 posts since 10 Dec, 2013
Also ty for this very open & clear statement Nick! Awesome to know that there are potential avenues for optimization down the road.nickallen wrote:The GUI is currently rendered entirely on the CPU using Cairo graphics library. The performance problems are not to do with our use of Java at all but just the shear number of pixels that have to be painted by the CPU and some areas where we haven't optimized the painting as much as we could (by reducing the painting to just the areas that needs updating and not painting layers that don't need to be for example). However, we are also working on offloading much of the painting to the GPU via OpenGL (at least for all the fast moving stuff like meters, oscilloscope and arranger/note editor). This will make a HUGE difference but I can't say when it will be ready - but rest assured we are aware of the issue and actively working to fix it by making use of the GPU in the long run. So the good news is we should be able to fix this and make it very snappy assuming you have a decent graphics card.
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- KVRist
- 480 posts since 18 Jan, 2017
Despite being one of those who seriously suffering from GUI lags, after playing with Phase-4 i'd buy Bitwig just because of this synth. With voice stacking feature its just sounds gorgeous (if you know how to use it and not just flickering presets). I'm one of those who prefer to work "in the box". In modern era of music software "the quality" aspect is not so crucial anymore (like say in 90s). Everything sounds more or less the same and your skills matters much more than your tools. Because of this i prefer native solution especially if i don't have to pay for it.connmach wrote:my last one,quincy wrote:Hi Connmach,
But you said "people buy..."
quincy, you are being silly
One can safely say that "People buy a DAW for the DAW."
It's like "People buy a car because they want a car."
There is no one who is buying a DAW for a native synth, no one.
goodbye.
over and out.
flying away gracefully...
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- KVRian
- 599 posts since 8 Apr, 2014 from USA
Wow. You sure do get a lot done with just a team of four. Fantastic stuff really.nickallen wrote:Well we're a development team of four developers each with different skill sets and specialized areas. The development of the synth and the framework for accelerating graphics via OpenGL are totally different developer projects that are happening in parallel and developed by different developers. Phase-4 in no way made the OpenGL acceleration take longer.connmach wrote:They should ditch that new synth and the philosophy of adding it behind that. Who is waiting for Yet Another Useless Native Synth?
Wasted resources....
My sincerest compliments.
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- KVRist
- 64 posts since 29 Jan, 2018
I'm not an expert but the cairo opengl support seems very undocumented and the project itself is maintained by a handfull of developers. The last big bump feature wise was last september, when a samsung developer merged code from like 5 years ago from their source code, which now enables some OpenGL ES version 3.0. And even he said it's still experimental and a lot of work needs to be done. Doesn't look like the future for cross platform GUI development.
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- KVRist
- 265 posts since 28 Feb, 2005 from Oz
Excellent news from the Dev, offloading the graphics to the GPU will be a huge move forward!
Bitwig 6 // Reason 12 // Logic X // Soundtoys // U-he // FabFilter // Arturia // Elektron // Vintage Hardware
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- KVRist
- 151 posts since 11 Aug, 2016
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- KVRist
- 64 posts since 29 Jan, 2018
That page was written 12 years ago.re23071998 wrote:https://www.cairographics.org/OpenGL/
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- Banned
- 11467 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland
That's probably one of the reasons Nick said they're moving to OpenGL.kdejaeger wrote:I'm not an expert but the cairo opengl support seems very undocumented and the project itself is maintained by a handfull of developers. The last big bump feature wise was last september, when a samsung developer merged code from like 5 years ago from their source code, which now enables some OpenGL ES version 3.0. And even he said it's still experimental and a lot of work needs to be done. Doesn't look like the future for cross platform GUI development.
I can imagine Cairo was chosen at the beginning maybe because it was familiar to one of the devs? And maybe it was deemed stable enough and the feature-set was adequate for a DAW at the time? It seems to be working fine for most of the users, especially on Linux & Windows.
It doesn't matter now. Just let's hope OpenGL happens soon! I'd imagine if Nick was allowed to talk about it, then it can't be that far off? Actually, from the business perspective, it would make sense to have it ready for next update or the one after at the latest, simply because all 2.0 owners got (will get) 2.3 for free, so there needs to be an incentive to pony up the next 169$ soon. I can't imagine a better incentive than much more responsive & stable performance
That beats alias clips for me