Possible scam buyer! Using PayPal Friends & Family = NO PROTECTION if you get scammed

[EnGee]

You can know when you see the amount you received! It lists the taxes taken from the amount!
I can state that only goods and business option is allowed, otherwise I would return the money. What's difficult in that?

Thank you. That was my question. There is no way to automatically reject this payments.
But if you return the money frequently your paypal balance will soon drop, since it's not free either
(of course, this is only a theoretical proposition )

You are right. There's no way to know beforehand.
Well, it's not perfect of course, but if it happens once every month, I don't think you even notice the difference in your balance, but if you are making a living of selling licenses, maybe it's better then you request the payment (yesterday, I bought Bazille and the seller sent me a request to pay him).

[WatchTheGuitar]

This thread is giving me heartburn

[Meffy]

No need to be upset. Just do things the smart way. If you must use PayPal F&F, do so only with KVR members you already know and trust.

[Meffy]

However, anyone who tells PayPal that they are sending money to a friend or family member, when they are actually making a transaction for goods or services, is entering into a business deal under false pretenses. I'm not a lawyer but I wouldn't be surprised if that is considered commercial fraud.

The issue may be more about PayPal's TOS and their ability to kick you off their service rather than them trying to do you for fraud (which does seem unlikely given the sums involved) if you kick up a fuss about being ripped off by a "friend".

I agree. In another thread someone who (I think) knows more about the legal side than I said much the same thing. Absent evidence to the contrary, I'll consider that poster's advice to be reliable.

[WatchTheGuitar]

No need to be upset. Just do things the smart way. If you must use PayPal F&F, do so only with KVR members you already know and trust.

Yeah I'm just waiting for the eventual bs PayPal claim to come through from a sale I made last week which sticks my account in the red.

[Meffy]

Ouch! Sorry for that.

[WatchTheGuitar]

One reason I accepted the offer from the account of a guy(?) with zero posts was because someone else had made a post in my own sale thread about how I was asking too much and I'd never sell it at the price (despite still making a loss and being way below RRP and any sale prices ever). Subsequently anyone entering the thread would see the comment and could think the asking price was a rip-off and there was some mythical much better value sale coming along any day.

If it doesn't already, could the rule "Trolling / Derailing / Being Helpful in other members' topics" be extended to people questioning the asking price so we could those sorts of comments removed?
Everyone can hit up a search engine to do price comparisons it's not like betraying the community to hide such posts.

[Meffy]

Mods don't make the rules, but we do have to interpret them sometimes. We'd probably have to take it on a case-by-case basis. Let us know and we'll try to do right by everyone involved.

If someone is thinking a seller is asking too much, a PM to the seller would be a good way to make your thoughts known without disrupting the thread or interfering with potential sales.

[LoveEnigma18]

People are still taking the risk to use (or at least have the option of using) PayPal Friends & Family. Ridiculous!

[Holon Mundi]

I have been trading a lot of eurorack modules using friends and family with no troubles at all. As I understand it the alternative pegs you as a vendor in regards to taxes and you get nothing back in a conflict if the seller has emptied his paypal account. What am I missing?

[agharta]

As I understand it the alternative pegs you as a vendor in regards to taxes and you get nothing back in a conflict if the seller has emptied his paypal account. What am I missing?

Selling privately doesn't make you a trader regardless of what method of payment you use although using a Business account is not ideal.
Business trading is generally classed by volume of sales or turnover.
Using friends and family for a private sale is a clear breach of terms and an abuse of a business so not an ethical way to behave.
PayPal have a way to claw back money even if the account has been emptied; they aren't stupid.

[Holon Mundi]

As I understand it the alternative pegs you as a vendor in regards to taxes and you get nothing back in a conflict if the seller has emptied his paypal account. What am I missing?

Selling privately doesn't make you a trader regardless of what method of payment you use although using a Business account is not ideal.
Business trading is generally classed by volume of sales or turnover.

I'm in the EU and here this is determined by a limit that you cannot exceed, say 5000 EUR per year. Under 5000 EUR is considered a hobby activity.

Using friends and family for a private sale is a clear breach of terms and an abuse of a business so not an ethical way to behave.

Some make friends easily. I'm not so sure about the ethics but let's just say that I prefer to accept Bitcoin using an escrow service. I don't trust Paypal. The thing I believe we all are after is a recourse if something happens. Something that helps us clear up technical errors, misunderstandings and scams. I'm impressed by the feedback threads here so I'll stay. Maybe I'll even pay some fees at Paypal if I come across a good enough deal.

PayPal have a way to claw back money even if the account has been emptied; they aren't stupid.

Have you confirmed this?

[gfd]

Isn't it possible that the buyer was just trying to save the seller a couple of dollars? Other than possibly getting a couple of dollars off (a 100 dollar PayPal transaction is about 5 bucks, isn't it?) what benefit is there to the buyer to use Friends and Family? The seller could accept the cash and look into their account to ensure it's been credited, before arranging the transfer.

Personally, I don't buy anything using Friends and Family. I'll pay the PayPal fees instead. That's not pointing a finger at anyone. Just being safe.

If there is a way for a buyer to scam a seller using Friends and Family, I would be grateful if someone would tell me. I am genuinely curious.

[thecontrolcentre]

n/m

[hikkichan]

If the buyer wanted the FF option, why is that a red flag for them? I can understand if this is coming from the seller, but if the buyer is the one who wants it, he's actually the one at risk, right?