SWAY - a synth modeled after the Yamaha SY77

[EvilDragon]

By modern standards the filters are crap.

Yeah I suppose so, but to me those early Yamaha digital filters were probably the best sounding out of all synth vendors, with perhaps the exception of Kurzweil. Very interesting character IMO.

But yeah for sure it should be pretty easy to add an option to replace the filter with Simper's cheap TPT SVF, which should serve much the same purpose just sound way better

[ghettosynth]

By modern standards the filters are crap.

Yeah I suppose so, but to me those early Yamaha digital filters were probably the best sounding out of all synth vendors, with perhaps the exception of Kurzweil. Very interesting character IMO.

I suppose. If you want to give credit where credit is due, the Roland and Korg filters of the day really sucked ass. I have all three here, as well as the Kurzweil, and I'm not really a fan. I think that things started to get better with Nord. My Nord modular smokes them all, but that came a bit later.

But yeah for sure it should be pretty easy to add an option to replace the filter with Simper's cheap TPT SVF, which should serve much the same purpose just sound way better

That's the answer. It's so easy to do that today and for us non-purists, that's good enough. Put that in as an option then stay up all night modeling the crap early digital filters so that you can sell the the thing to purists who will go on and on about the authenticity of the weak ass filter.

[EvilDragon]

Yeah 96k sample rate of Nords probably helped, but they're still most likely just finetuned biquads

[nix808]

Nord Modular G2 filters do sound really nice to me too for some reason

[ghettosynth]

Yeah 96k sample rate of Nords probably helped, but they're still most likely just finetuned biquads

Sure, higher sample rate or oversampling helps quite a bit, but the Nord filters still sound like 90s digital filters, just not as bad as the mainstream workstations of the day. I commented back then that they weren't keeping up with analog, but I liked the nord modular because of the flexibility of the digital modular paradigm. I only brought them up because until they came out, people were talking about the status quo as if it were acceptable. So we learned from the Nord that you need better accuracy, which we get from the higher sample rate.

At any rate, I'm not trying to sell the Nord, only pointing out that digital filters were crap in the 90s and you can spend a lot of time trying to model that crap sound, and you should for the purists, but, take five minutes and download the code for a TPT SVF and include that as well.

[gentleclockdivider]

Nord modular filters sound great, and I also like the tg77 filters , especially in serial mode + resonance .
But why are we even comparing them ?
The later generation va’s were pure software based filters , the sy-tg series was boolean algebra-logic ..not a line of code ,

[ghettosynth]

Nord modular filters sound great, and I also like the tg77 filters , especially in serial mode + resonance .
But why are we even comparing them ?
The later generation va’s were pure software based filters , the sy-tg series was boolean algebra-logic ..not a line of code ,

I assume that what you mean is that they implement the filter algorithm in the digital domain within an ASIC. That doesn't mean that it's substantially different from a software implementation of the same algorithm in terms of sound. To be clear, I'm not familiar with the technical design of the SY77 internals, but I do understand the technology. It was almost certainly done that way at the time for performance reasons. It is still a mediocre filter algorithm, no matter what the implementation, and can be improved by using a more modern approach. Certainly a plugin will implement a similar algorithm in software.

Again, I'm not speaking from ignorance, I own an SY77.

[bnz]

I can imagine that it would also make sense to generalize the envelope to an mseg as in zebra rather than having a static amount of envelope points. It can still be backward compatible, but it also allows more flexible envelopes. Also an option for host tempo synced envelope rates / time units would be nice.

[gentleclockdivider]

Double points if it will also function as an editor for the hardware

[Teksonik]

Analog emulation is a different matter IMO not a valid comparison here.

It's a perfectly valid comparison. You're just suffering from the collective KVR myopia when it comes to the definition of a "synth".

Like I said a MiniMoog is not a emulation without the original waveforms. Release a MiniMoog without a Saw wave and see how badly you get flamed. There is no difference with a sample based synth. Don't have the original waveforms? Then it's not an emulation. Period.

Waveforms are what make the sound of a synth. It doesn't matter if that's a generated Saw wave or a full multi-sample tabernacle choir.

Again we see here at KVR people who will examine an analog emulation with a microscope seeking perfection yet say "any old sample" will do with a sample based synth.

That has to do with the KVR myopia where only subtractive synthesis is considered valid. Anything sample based is considered inferior even though those synths defined an entire era of sound and are an order of magnitude more powerful than some dusty old 2 Osc analog synth. That may be because many members of KVR are too young to have actually lived thorough that era so are simply unaware.

Again if you release a MiniMoog with a Roland filter it's not an emulation. Release a sample based synth without the original samples and it's not an emulation.

That undeniable fact is so simple to grasp I don't know why I'm even having to repeat it.

I stand by my statement that if the digital synth engine in the plugin does to any sample you shove into it

Then you stand by a statement that is factually incorrect. Plain and simple.

Again we see "any old sample will do" for a sample based synth when an analog emulation is expected to be 100% accurate or it gets raked over the coals here for being even a tiny bit inaccurate. That hypocrisy is what bothers me and hence why I'm pushing back.

There are no legal issues here, really.

Where did your get your Law Degree? Ask yourself why there are very few emulations of sample based synths not created by the original hardware manufacturers. (D-50 emulation by Roland Cloud, Triton by Korg etc). It's because there can be legal issues with using the original samples and without them it's not an emulation.

anyone owning a TG77 or SY77 can duplicate the data on the sample ROM chips for their own personal use.

And for those who don't own a TG or SY? To them this project will be nothing but a tribute, not an emulation. Or they're going to have to pirate the original ROM data and anyone advocating that has broken KVR's terms of service and should be banned.

It's the distribution of that that is hairy, as we all know.

That's been my point all along.

Anyway I've explained the issue as clearly and concisely as possible so if anyone is still not getting it then any further discussion is pointless. Some people simply can't be educated.

[OrionAlpha101]

I hope you will do it !
The Sy77 in the box is a dream come true
The Hardware here stands in the corner.
Will there be a Mac au version?
If so please let the plugin work with macOS Mojave also.

[EvilDragon]

>ou're just suffering from the collective KVR myopia when it comes to the definition of a "synth".

No, I'm really not. I don't have only subtractive synths under my belt, you know, nor do I look at subtractive as the golden cow of synthesis (although it IS very milkable! ). This has nothing to do with KvR, this is simply my opinion and how I look at this project, and how I would consider it. If it does to any sample the same things that a hardware SY77 does, it is a good emulation. As far as I am concerned, this is case closed. It doesn't have to be the case for you, and I don't really care about that

[egbert101]

Teksonik makes a good point. I think it sounds great, but trying to make it a SY77 without the samples is just silly. What you could do is a steroid version, sort of what like Behringer did with the Deepmind, and people will probably love it as a whole separate synthesizer rather than a pale inferior imitation.

[osiris]

This sounds and looks great. I'm upset because I had a SY77 rom that I tossed in the dumpster because I didn't have anything to read it anymore.

[audiojunkie]

Teksonik makes a good point. I think it sounds great, but trying to make it a SY77 without the samples is just silly. What you could do is a steroid version, sort of what like Behringer did with the Deepmind, and people will probably love it as a whole separate synthesizer rather than a pale inferior imitation.

We are literally hairs over semantics. If someone were to bring an SY77 with missing ROM chips into a consignment shop, to sell, he wouldn't argue that it's not an SY77. He would say that it is an SY77 that is missing its ROM chips. He would say that whoever chooses to buy the synth will need to obtain replacement ROM chips to make the synth complete.

Likewise, if someone wrote an SY77 emulator, but didn't add the ROM component, he wouldn't say that it is not a real emulation of an SY77, he would say that it is a real emulation of an SY77, but that to complete the emulation, the purchaser would need to source their own ROM--whether that be by legal means or not is irrelevant to the seller of the plugin. The seller of the plugin complied with legal laws by not including the parts that Yamaha has claim to, and providing the parts that are legal to provide. Think of it as a PAiA FatMan kit with a missing part, or a Zynthian without a case--that one must source for himself. You wouldn't call it an imitation, you would call it what it is--an emulation of an SY77 that needs the ROMs to be complete and sound just like a hardware version. An imitation means: the action of using someone or something as a model. An imitation would mean that the developer of the product took ideas from the SY77, but never meant to actually model it and have it sound the same as an SY77. While similar, the design intentions are completely different--little actual modeling of the real device would need to go into a imitation. This plugin is an emulation of an SY77 synth in software form, but without the ROM. That's what it is. And yes, there are legal means of obtaining the ROMS. Anyone can legally go into ebay and buy a cheap broken hardware SY77 and obtain the ROM information from the chips on the device. That's legal.