KVR Audio

Z3R0T0N1N · Post by **Z3R0T0N1N** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:06 pm

looks like the rio karma is the way to go.

CC4 · Post by **CC4** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:06 am

that's what i was thinking.

review
quote: This is the new player of choice for audiophiles and geeks.

rain2 · Post by **rain2** » Thu May 05, 2005 3:01 am

There are measurements done, what different lossy compression algos do to the music. All in common is, that a fair amount of noise is added at relatively high levels.
Therefore trust only lossless formats.

If it *has* to be a lossy format (bandwidth or space constraints), then AAC is the best at present time.

See measurements here:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=85821

or nicer, with non-cropped images, here:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=454041

Spe3D · Post by **Spe3D** » Thu May 05, 2005 3:15 am

rain2 wrote:
See measurements here:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=85821

Rain2 I have done a rain vbr here

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=86094

and this is an exact copy of the wave that can be downloaded – the original wave does have a noise floor from extreme high gain on the mixer, but does the vbr also add even more noise, and reduce elements? Its clear it does, but a tricky one to define with the content of the files

Cool post you have done.

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

CC4 · Post by **CC4** » Thu May 05, 2005 3:42 am

rain2 wrote:Therefore trust only lossless formats. If it *has* to be a lossy format (bandwidth or space constraints), then AAC is the best at present time.

what about FLAC?... it doesn't have the big corporate apple logo hanging over it.

rain2 · Post by **rain2** » Thu May 05, 2005 10:59 am

Spe3D wrote: ... the original wave does have a noise floor from extreme high gain on the mixer, but does the vbr also add even more noise, and reduce elements?
...

Hi Spe3d,
there is no such thing like an "original wave" when you record in MD ATRAC format. It is already worse than mp3 I'm afraid.

So there the noise floor comes from

And if you record rain, then you have a lot of steep transients in the original signal, but subband encoders (like virtually all lossy formats like ATRAC and mp3) "wash them out".

Hi CC4,
when I did refer to lossless formats, then all of them are meant, APE, FLAC, Apple Lossless, WMA-Lossless, etc.
If space is a concern, then AAC as a lossy format is the best choice, no matter if iTunes uses it too or not.

cron · Post by **cron** » Thu May 05, 2005 11:27 am

Sorry, but I really don't see how you can assess psychoacoustic compression visually. Isn't a messed up graph equally likely to indicate that the codec has a better psychoacoustic model?

rain2 · Post by **rain2** » Thu May 05, 2005 12:19 pm

cron wrote:... Isn't a messed up graph equally likely to indicate that the codec has a better psychoacoustic model?

In my opinion not.
And if you compare old mp2 graph with most recent technology aac (or ogg) graph, then you see where the effort is going.
If people refer to "transparent" encoding, always the original waveform and spectrum should be the reference.
If some people like re-synthesized or with noise mudded music sound, why not, audiophiles go towards lossless anyway.

CC4 · Post by **CC4** » Thu May 05, 2005 9:32 pm

rain2 wrote:Hi CC4,when I did refer to lossless formats, then all of them are meant, APE, FLAC, Apple Lossless, WMA-Lossless, etc.If space is a concern, then AAC as a lossy format is the best choice, no matter if iTunes uses it too or not.

...cause if people don't like the Karma, there's the new Rio Karma Digital Music Player. it's 20 GB and plays FLAC, and seems to be one of the only players that currently plays a free lossless compression format. besides the various Karmas, there's also the Cowon iAudio M3L. these models should be hugged and caressed by independent musicians.

i see no other models that support any lossless compression (other than the iPODs, and AAC strikes me as the Dark Side). i plan on getting one very soon to listen to the ever expanding net musician downloads.

rain2 · Post by **rain2** » Fri May 06, 2005 12:01 pm

CC4 wrote:... i see no other models that support any lossless compression (other than the iPODs, and AAC strikes me as the Dark Side). ...

I wonder if the WMA capable players play also WMA-lossless or not ? Yes, I also wait for a lossless player with the necessary huge disk, preferably APE, because I encoded all my CDs already to APE, don't want to re-encode, even if it is lossless

Maybe I missed the story about the Dark Side of AAC, but I'm happy with my Nokia (6230) phone playing AAC from the inserted 1GB memory card. It has surprisingly good DA-Converters, so the difference between mp3 (which it also can play) and AAC can be told easily.

Spe3D · Post by **Spe3D** » Fri May 06, 2005 1:00 pm

rain2 wrote: Hi Spe3d,
there is no such thing like an "original wave" when you record in MD ATRAC format. It is already worse than mp3 I'm afraid.

Hi! Rain2

Which generation of ATRAC are you making reference to? How old is your data?

rain2 wrote: So there the noise floor comes from
And if you record rain, then you have a lot of steep transients in the original signal, but subband encoders (like virtually all lossy formats like ATRAC and mp3) "wash them out".

I can hear rain in my recording – it sounds like rain

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

TankGirl · Post by **TankGirl** » Fri May 06, 2005 5:40 pm

CC4 wrote: ...cause if people don't like the Karma, there's the new Rio Karma Digital Music Player. it's 20 GB and plays FLAC, and seems to be one of the only players that currently plays a free lossless compression format.

There are only two reviews there - probably written by Rio's staff. I suggest that people check out the Karma reviews here:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?R2846380B

before shelling out their cash.

I looked at the Rio Karma last year before deciding on an I-River H-140, which is superb. The Karma's hard-drive often fails 2-5 months after purchase and the cheap scroll-wheel breaks off very easily.

This is a great shame as I now need a player with FLAC support and there seem to be no other options.

CC4 · Post by **CC4** » Sat May 07, 2005 2:11 am

Cowon iAudio M3L or the expensive iAudio X5 seems like the only other option.

i fustrated myself... living in one of those few countries where the dollar is actually lower than the US dollar, i am finding it difficult to find any really good MP3 players that i can buy in a store or ship here from somewhere else without paying an arm and a leg for taxes and duty. i went to some stores and all they seem to have is these crappy 256 MB flash memory ones that won't even play ogg vorbis. i might as well load some tracks onto a CD and play them in an MP3 capable portable CD Player.

i'd like to download some tunes from the world of net musicians without the hassle of burning a CD. i don't know how often i'd like to listen to an avant-garde artist who beats his guitar with a drumstick. i don't want to have to worry about downloading some dude from europe's ambient track that rolls on for ten minutes. a decent MP3 player would be perfect for this.

...do i have to buy the Darth Vader of MP3 players?...

iPod vs. The Cassette

Z3R0T0N1N · Post by **Z3R0T0N1N** » Sat May 07, 2005 6:37 am

That iPod vs. Cassette expose was very informative. Thanks.

hey, don't buy an iPod (invasion of the iPod People!) you won't be happy with it.
well, unless you don't care about sound quallity.
There will be better options soon, here in Canada, just be patient.

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Sat May 07, 2005 9:15 am

Problem with the Rio Karma is that it needs some stupid application to be installed to be seen as a removeable harddrive, which is utterly stupid. iPods are working as mobile harddives without any such hassles.
I'd never think about getting one though - but fortunately I'll get an iPod mini for free with my next cell phone (somewhen next week). 4GB for me is enough for most purposes.

MP3 Therapy