Software has NEVER ACHIEVED Decent Guitar Distortion. Nope.

[Empty Uranus]

I agree that less is more. EQ, though, is kind of necessary, don't you think? If you leave all your knobs at 12:00 you're missing out on a lot of tonal possibilities.

Also, Pre- gain EQ is a tried, tested, classic (no newfandangledness), and true way to give yourself even more possibilities. Want more crunch and balls? A bit of mid boost (adding raw dB in addition to just changing the frequency content) will getcha there.

So, while I actually agree that ideally it'd be an amp, a mic, and a guitar, I can't figure out why you wouldn't use EQ as part of your tone.

Greg

I EQ the source - the amp. 'Sall. I can move the mic around and add presence that way a hellva lot quicker than I can start EQing stuff on a plug in. Hell - life's too short!

As far as balls and crunch, I'm pretty happy: http://buttspray1.dmusic.com/music/stre ... stream.m3u

[Hink]

I agree that less is more. EQ, though, is kind of necessary, don't you think? If you leave all your knobs at 12:00 you're missing out on a lot of tonal possibilities.

Also, Pre- gain EQ is a tried, tested, classic (no newfandangledness), and true way to give yourself even more possibilities. Want more crunch and balls? A bit of mid boost (adding raw dB in addition to just changing the frequency content) will getcha there.

So, while I actually agree that ideally it'd be an amp, a mic, and a guitar, I can't figure out why you wouldn't use EQ as part of your tone.

Greg

Absolutely less is more, but some sounds are easier to get with more gain...now I didn't say you could only get those sounds with more gain, but is easier...as my techniques have improved I've watched my gain levels drop, I don't always use eqs to boost (instead I actually equalize ), I even have all my guitars equiped with pre-amps that use to be constant on and the trim pot at full (now I rarely use them and the trim pots at about 10%) but I'm not sure this is a point that can be made to people, it has to be discovered. But the truth is the noise of high gain get's replaced with better tonality as gain levels drop, it's amazing what comes through when there's more room for tone and when you now how to make it happen. Everything use to be 10s...now they're closer to 5s...such is life though, the same holds true for me...

[Lunch Money]

I just mean his on-amp EQ. Even without pedals and so forth. Didn't mean the gain knob.

EU: I will never deny that your tone is great. Loved those clips. But moving the mic around and making intelligent use of EQ are 2 separate things. You still have to have good mic technique no matter what, and EQ isn't to compensate for that...!

No wonder you think it's time-consuming. To me, nothing easier than saying "not enough mids" and then boosting them (or cutting the lows and highs if I don't want to add dB). I mean, it's hardly rocket science and hardly time consuming. Ditto for the on-amp controls... are you saying that you don't touch those either, or that you don't consider them to be "EQ"?

Greg

[Hink]

I just mean his on-amp EQ. Even without pedals and so forth. Didn't mean the gain knob.

doesn't mean the same isn't true for on amp gain controls..I don't use much pedals

[Lunch Money]

Right... but I wasn't saying that putting your gain knob at 5, 10, 1, or anywhere else was a bad thing and indeed made no judgements about it at all.

We probably agree about some sort of point here, but I'm getting confused. I'm not much for pedals, either...

[guitarzan]

As far as 20 plugs - well, even mic'ing an amp, you're eventually going to have to use some EQ, compresssion, and probably some stereo delay and/or reverb, limiting, etc. right?

No. NOT if the original sound is good enough. I absolutely use no compression or limiting, nor do I ever use any EQ on my amp. As much as we've gotten so reliable for these little gizmos to correct things in the mix, I still try to keep some of it as real as I can. The less you stomp on something (meaning applying things like that), the more realistic it's going to sound.

Maybe I'm old fashioned in that sense, though I still love the technology. Again - I'll say that I'm really quite impressed with some of these simulators. I've been screwing with a lot of them here lately (thanks to YOU guys ), and I've listened to a lot of everybody's sounds as well. Still - I haven't heard a sound yet (my preferences here ) that I like more than my amp.

I'm a Recording Workshop grad from way back in 1984, and they really pounded into our heads about how important getting killer sounds from the beginning was... Guess I'm just going back to my edumacation on that.

When I said that you would eventually add EQ, stereo reverb, etc, I meant in the mix/master stages that will follow. Studio processing. Virtual Studio Technology. Those plugs are there to give me an indication of how the sound will hold up after "polishing". And in some ways there is more tweaking to get software to produce a tone that you like - but not all that much. You've never sat around for hours going through a bucket of NOS tubes to find the sweet ones? Or tried different speakers? The more I get used to having as many dynamic processing elements (compression,expansion, limiting) as I want, the more tweaking them reminds me of searching for a sweet NOS tube - it was the right dynamic properties I was looking for all along only I thought of it in different terms before.

As far as the parametric EQ is concerned - my normal software rig wouldn't have it in there. It was suggested here because the original poster was looking for a high gain metal tone, and I know it is pretty common (or it was when I was still paying attention, anyway) for metal guys to have a parametric EQ in their FX loops to get that tight sound. I recently read an article somewhere that mentioned someone's studio technique (...I don't know .... someone famous enough to have articles written about how they get their studio tone ) was to send a giant messy wall of a mix of mic'ed amps to a parametric eq and carve away everything they didn't want, so it is still in use by some.

[Hink]

Right... but I wasn't saying that putting your gain knob at 5, 10, 1, or anywhere else was a bad thing and indeed made no judgements about it at all.

We probably agree about some sort of point here, but I'm getting confused. I'm not much for pedals, either...

I didn't say it was a bad thing either...I just said I have found I'm often finding myself backing off, when there was a time I couldn't get enough gain...but then I did say it's a point that can't be made, it's discovered...

[Lunch Money]

Right. It's just as I suspected. We agree!

[Empty Uranus]

As far as the parametric EQ is concerned - my normal software rig wouldn't have it in there. It was suggested here because the original poster was looking for a high gain metal tone, and I know it is pretty common (or it was when I was still paying attention, anyway) for metal guys to have a parametric EQ in their FX loops to get that tight sound. I recently read an article somewhere that mentioned someone's studio technique (...I don't know .... someone famous enough to have articles written about how they get their studio tone ) was to send a giant messy wall of a mix of mic'ed amps to a parametric eq and carve away everything they didn't want, so it is still in use by some.

Ya - as far as any reverb, chorus, delay, or any other time items - they all go on after the fact. I never compress a dirty sound, though. The tubes in the amp take care of that. If I have one (or however many) particular notes that might try to clip, I'll smooth off that one little clip with a little bit of limiter or compressor, but I usually don't have to do that.

I've still got to laugh at the folks who try to record WITH their effect (like those above). YUCK!

Hey - I'm not saying my way is the best way - I'm just saying I'm pretty happy with what I'm getting. AND - I appreciate the info you guys are giving me. I'm in the process of making a career change away from sales and back into music/production/recording. I may starve, but I'd rather starve doing something I love as opposed to making money at something I absolutely hate!

[Killvehicle]

THe funny thing Empty Uranus is this, I totally agree with you, I will always mic my amps, it is just what I like, I have tried and tried to get a good sim tone, just to do it basically. I mean I was pretty happy with that tone I got a few pages back here, but I haven even gone back to it, I still play live with an amp and always will and I have spent a chunk of change in good mics, cabs, mic pre's etc. But the "funny" part although it is not really LOL funny is the same people have been talking about this for so long. HINK , lunch money Sascha, and the list goes on, Everyone is pretty set in there ways, I.E Hink has ben telling me since day one that I haven't been open enough and IM to close minded and the fact I have had the same rig for over 10 years proves his point. (Hink I aint attacking you or anything, hopefully we have been thru enough were you can understand Im just trying to make a point, nothing more nothing less.) And my point is I think your tone is good, I like my tone all mic'ed as well, but as much as I crap on sims, I do still try out EVERYONE there is. WHY? Becasue essentially it is a FREE amp, well the free ones that is, And if one kicks ass then it is basically a tremondous gift no doubt. I think the JCM 900 is a gift. But just so you know since you are relatively new around here(empty Uranus) you will continued to be steered towards sims by many of these folks, and some like me, Sascha (i think) will always be on the side of real amps, and mics as old as they may be and lack technology is the absolute essential way to record guitar. BUtit is always a good debate usually and FUN. I tried to stay away from this forum but I love guitar and couldnt help but come back for another!! sim debate.

The fact is some sims are getting good and with some help they are damn close.. Its all good. Hows that HInk,. I went from total against sims to some leniency towards their quality... I may be cracking?




















Nah maybe a percentage point..

[guitarzan]

Hey - I'm not saying my way is the best way - I'm just saying I'm pretty happy with what I'm getting. AND - I appreciate the info you guys are giving me. I'm in the process of making a career change away from sales and back into music/production/recording. I may starve, but I'd rather starve doing something I love as opposed to making money at something I absolutely hate!

I'm not trying to stear anyone anywhere, either! My posted screenshot was a suggestion to the original poster on this thread who was looking for a high gain sound (and who has Warp, by the way) - and my answer to the suggestion that you can't produce a decent distorted tone with software. I think you most certainly CAN - but I'm not saying anyone should abondon their amps!

I still have three tube amps. But for my kind of tone - you still have to crank them up. I like Fender tone and you don't get that from a preamp (belive me, I've tried them all including the Mesa Studio pre). The power amp has to be smokin' and I just can't do that where I'm at now. I even have a little Champ with a TAD-1 one watt converter and a custom speaker and a special rectifier from Weber to produce more sag but it'll still shake the walls, and I can get a tone closer to what I really want from software than the Champ with the TAD-1 - so that's where I'm at.

[Hink]

THe funny thing Empty Uranus is this, I totally agree with you, I will always mic my amps, it is just what I like, I have tried and tried to get a good sim tone, just to do it basically. I mean I was pretty happy with that tone I got a few pages back here, but I haven even gone back to it, I still play live with an amp and always will and I have spent a chunk of change in good mics, cabs, mic pre's etc. But the "funny" part although it is not really LOL funny is the same people have been talking about this for so long. HINK , lunch money Sascha, and the list goes on, Everyone is pretty set in there ways, I.E Hink has ben telling me since day one that I haven't been open enough and IM to close minded and the fact I have had the same rig for over 10 years proves his point. (Hink I aint attacking you or anything, hopefully we have been thru enough were you can understand Im just trying to make a point, nothing more nothing less.) And my point is I think your tone is good, I like my tone all mic'ed as well, but as much as I crap on sims, I do still try out EVERYONE there is. WHY? Becasue essentially it is a FREE amp, well the free ones that is, And if one kicks ass then it is basically a tremondous gift no doubt. I think the JCM 900 is a gift. But just so you know since you are relatively new around here(empty Uranus) you will continued to be steered towards sims by many of these folks, and some like me, Sascha (i think) will always be on the side of real amps, and mics as old as they may be and lack technology is the absolute essential way to record guitar. BUtit is always a good debate usually and FUN. I tried to stay away from this forum but I love guitar and couldnt help but come back for another!! sim debate.

The fact is some sims are getting good and with some help they are damn close.. Its all good. Hows that HInk,. I went from total against sims to some leniency towards their quality... I may be cracking?




















Nah maybe a percentage point..

it's all good dude...the fact is the musical journey is different for everyone of us. The one constant there might be is you never know what's around the next corner....that also might be the best part of the journey

[Hink]

Hey - I'm not saying my way is the best way - I'm just saying I'm pretty happy with what I'm getting. AND - I appreciate the info you guys are giving me. I'm in the process of making a career change away from sales and back into music/production/recording. I may starve, but I'd rather starve doing something I love as opposed to making money at something I absolutely hate!

I'm not trying to stear anyone anywhere, either! My posted screenshot was a suggestion to the original poster on this thread who was looking for a high gain sound (and who has Warp, by the way) - and my answer to the suggestion that you can't produce a decent distorted tone with software. I think you most certainly CAN - but I'm not saying anyone should abondon their amps!

I still have three tube amps. But for my kind of tone - you still have to crank them up. I like Fender tone and you don't get that from a preamp (belive me, I've tried them all including the Mesa Studio pre). The power amp has to be smokin' and I just can't do that where I'm at now. I even have a little Champ with a TAD-1 one watt converter and a custom speaker and a special rectifier from Weber to produce more sag but it'll still shake the walls, and I can get a tone closer to what I really want from software than the Champ with the TAD-1 - so that's where I'm at.

my amp is just way too much overkill...I should buy a tube head and retire the rack...the funny thing is if I did, it would have to be a head...I already have the 4x12, but if I brought in a combo too my wife would go all nutty on me and I just can't bear to give up a half stack...the ultimate goal for me is to get out of here oneday and to a place where I can buy a whisper room...the I could use it for vox, acoustic and mic'ing an amp. In which case I would go on a hunt for a Mesa-Boogie S.O.B. like got stolen from me...

btw I live on a very bust street on the major route to a major hospital...there's a bridge right here and the hospital is the tother side of the river...so too many sirens, too many trucks and too many dumbasses driving by destroying there ears thump, thump, thump. I get a lot of harleys too, but that's okay...I might even leave that in a recording...but mic'ing just isn't an option...and also why I have a bunch of songs waiting for vox...

[Lunch Money]

I dunno, kv... it does seem closed-minded that you're basically saying Hink and I (amongst others) are trying to convert anyone at all to sims, or that someone like Sascha is "on the side" of real amps. I think you'll discover that all our opinions aren't really that black and white. Also, how many times in these threads is one of my points, "we don't all have that great amp, with good mics, and the right recording environment." Sheesh. I wish there were internet Q-tips so that you could clean out your virtual ears and actually respond to an entire line of thinking rather than picking and choosing the ones that suit you.

I'm sure we all think you're very cool and very RAWK with your one amp and one mic. Go have fun with it.

Greg

[Hink]

I dunno, kv... it does seem closed-minded that you're basically saying I'm trying to convert anyone at all to sims. That's never my point.

Greg

People Sims Make me a Brian May...I would love to listen to him for a week or two...