Madrona Labs Sumu

[Korg Supporter]

For Parsec, you can buy a used Reason 11 Lite license for cheap and use the rack extension in the Rack VST wrapper..

[Borbolactic]

Additive Versus Waveshape/Wavefold: Differences?

It’s easy enough to synthesize and sum sine waves - the big challenge of additive synthesis is user interface. How do you enable mass editing of partials in a musical, fun, and creative way? Sumu seems like a nice paradigm and also fits into the X+Y concept of prior ML plugins (Kaivo = granular + physical modeling, Sumu = additive + FM).

That begs the question if Sumu is somehow adding the partials, via FM, or, instead or at least as much or more, waveshaping/wavefolding the partials that are already there, via FM. Perhaps that is a key difference that changes the underlying nature/timbre of the final sound.

Perhaps Sumu is more waveshaper/wavefolder than strictly additive, at least in the Razor/Loom/Parsec sense. What do you think?

If it's some sort of waveshaper/wavefolder-cum-additive mutant, it might explain why my ears, so far at least, are sufficiently less-than-happy with Sumu.
I'm fairly sure one can or will be able do 'interesting' things with Sumu, but it may not be everyone's interesting.

I suspect Cherry Audio' Sines does that; waveshapes/wavefolds the sines, rather than on-the-fly adds and subtracts and shifts them around but keeps them intact.

Is it a specific distinction, though? It might explain things. Initially, I was all excited about CA's Sines, until I heard it. It sounds more or less like a subtractive synth. Maybe it has a chaos filter/LFO too.

I actually have Newfangled Audio's Generate and that's what it seems to do-- waveshape/wavefold, on sines, alone-- but it seems to do it more intricately, via chaos/fractal math, so the results are more interesting to me, if in different ways to Loom/Parsec/Razor. I suspect Dawesome's Kult synth works like that too.

[dayjob]

I suspect Cherry Audio' Sines does that; waveshapes/wavefolds the sines, rather than on-the-fly adds and subtracts, shifts them around and keeps them intact.

what cherry audio Sines does is not relevant if i can't look at it w/o getting sea sick or triggering nystagmus.

[Borbolactic]

I suspect Cherry Audio' Sines does that; waveshapes/wavefolds the sines, rather than on-the-fly adds and subtracts, shifts them around and keeps them intact.

what cherry audio Sines does is not relevant if i can't look at it w/o getting sea sick or triggering nystagmus.

Nystagmus is a vision condition in which the eyes make repetitive, uncontrolled movements. These movements often result in reduced vision and depth perception and can affect balance and coordination. These involuntary eye movements can occur from side to side, up and down, or in a circular pattern. ~ AOA - American Optometric Association [Wow, that's quite gnarly!]

LOL, I hear you. If CA's Sines was more like the aforementioned additives, I could probably work around its GUI, maybe take a seasick pill a few minutes before booting up.

For Parsec, you can buy a used Reason 11 Lite license for cheap and use the rack extension in the Rack VST wrapper..

There's little chance I'm going to get involved in yet another DAW just to have access to one plugin, even if it might be a good one. I really resent lock-ins like that to sell a product, especially products that were previously separate. Maybe there's a wrapper for Parsec that can be used in another DAW like the one I use? (Ardour)

This begs the question if plugins that are somehow fused with/imprisoned in DAWS can be somehow pulled out and used like any plugin/VST/CLAP in one's own DAW-of-choice. Maybe a coder could be hired.

[foosnark]

some sort of waveshaper/wavefolder-cum-additive mutant

Wavefolding can sound similar to phase modulation at a 1:1 ratio. The saw-to-sine transfer function used in phase modulation is a kind of waveshaper, technically But I would not call every FM synth a waveshaper-based synth, and Sumu is very definitely FM.

In fact, each oscillator on here is like Aalto's oscillator section minus the waveshaping.

I think it's fair to call it a modular synth with 64 2-op FM pairs, which can be controlled by a map of 64 partials' frequencies and amplitudes... but doesn't have to be. Some other things I imagine doing with it:

- Keep all the amplitudes at max, and use the filter to shape the timbre.

- Keep all of the oscillators in unison, working with Pulses and Space to have a complex moving cloud of sound that isn't additive at all, with the envelopes (or maybe specialized settings in Partials?) controlling FM index.

- Set all the amplitudes to 0, use the Pulses section to send 64 different LFOs to the noise level, and have Space move them around in 3D (then shape that with the filter).

- Crazy shifting clangorous FM by patching the frequency output on Partials to FM ratio or offset instead of pitch. (Probably want to keep the FM index pretty limited, from envelopes, pulses, or a hardware controller...)

[Borbolactic]

some sort of waveshaper/wavefolder-cum-additive mutant

Wavefolding can sound similar to phase modulation at a 1:1 ratio. The saw-to-sine transfer function used in phase modulation is a kind of waveshaper, technically But I would not call every FM synth a waveshaper-based synth, and Sumu is very definitely FM.

In fact, each oscillator on here is like Aalto's oscillator section minus the waveshaping.

I think it's fair to call it a modular synth with 64 2-op FM pairs, which can be controlled by a map of 64 partials' frequencies and amplitudes... but doesn't have to be. Some other things I imagine doing with it: [...]

Sounds intriguing if a little mysterious by the inexperienced... I guess it will all boil down to the end-result and how effective and easy, fun and/or interesting it is to achieve.
Did you beta-test for it and/or are you going to get it when it's released?
If so, will you be advertising what you do with it somewhere where we might take a listen? Your Bandcamp maybe?

[foosnark]

I didn't beta test for it, definitely going to grab it when I get it.

I don't do product demos (occasional stuff to show a technique maybe) and when I use it it's going to be alongside a bunch of modular, other synths, lots of effects etc.

[kraster]

The big challenge of additive synthesis is user interface.

Nailed it.

Due to the amount of individual elements in additive synths usability quickly becomes an issue.

I quite like the way Loom II handles it. You shape the sound through various processors.

Whereas something like MSoundfactory's additive module allows for much more granularity but it's too unwieldy to be practical in most cases.

[Korg Supporter]

Did you not pay attention? My last comment mentioned this (https://www.reasonstudios.com/en/reason/rack-plugin). That's the wrapper. And used Reason Lite licenses cost $5-10 on KVR or KnobCloud. You could also get one that's included in a MIDI controller or synth's registration code.

[pandafish]

I quite like the way Loom II handles it. You shape the sound through various processors.

Whereas something like MSoundfactory's additive module allows for much more granularity but it's too unwieldy to be practical in most cases.

Loom is a good design, it’s too bad it seems to be abandonware. In addition to not supporting Apple Silicon, last I checked some UI elements were just broken on recent versions of OSX.

While waiting for Sumu to drop I’ve been using Pigments or MSoundFactory when I am looking for “classic” additive synthesis.

Other additive thoughts:
Arturia Synclavier can sound exceptional but it’s not much fun to program IMHO.

This video is a great approach to additive synthesis in Vital:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ioJpnBMO1Us

The sub oscillator in Minimal Audio Current has some special additive features.

[Borbolactic]

Did you not pay attention? My last comment mentioned this (https://www.reasonstudios.com/en/reason/rack-plugin). That's the wrapper. And used Reason Lite licenses cost $5-10 on KVR or KnobCloud. You could also get one that's included in a MIDI controller or synth's registration code.

Thanks KS... I looked briefly into it and am a little confused so far. Does one have to get Reason or Reason Lite (Are they DAW's?) to get the wrapper (Reason Rack?) for using Parsec in another DAW (in my case, Ardour)? Seems a bit curious, but given your response as well as my interest in Parsec, I'll try to get more time to look more into it and get back to you, including in case I'm still confused.

[Borbolactic]

I didn't beta test for it, definitely going to grab it when I get it.

I don't do product demos (occasional stuff to show a technique maybe) and when I use it it's going to be alongside a bunch of modular, other synths, lots of effects etc.

Fair enough and best with it. If you change your mind and decide to do at least a small/good example or two (even if you want to delete them after) of ML's Sumu on your site/channel, please feel free to let us know.

[dayjob]

Did you not pay attention? My last comment mentioned this (https://www.reasonstudios.com/en/reason/rack-plugin). That's the wrapper. And used Reason Lite licenses cost $5-10 on KVR or KnobCloud. You could also get one that's included in a MIDI controller or synth's registration code.

Thanks KS... I looked briefly into it and am a little confused so far. Does one have to get Reason or Reason Lite (Are they DAW's?) to get the wrapper (Reason Rack?) for using Parsec in another DAW (in my case, Ardour)? Seems a bit curious, but given your response as well as my interest in Parsec, I'll try to get more time to look more into it and get back to you, including in case I'm still confused.

this is way off topic for the sumu thread... but you never know when reason is going to leave you hanging by yanking the support for their copy protection for older versions so you can't reinstall it.

relevant bit starts at 4:10

https://youtu.be/YAx3yCNomkg?si=7Mz4EXtvaEf5xiYu&t=250

[Borbolactic]

Did you not pay attention? My last comment mentioned this (https://www.reasonstudios.com/en/reason/rack-plugin). That's the wrapper. And used Reason Lite licenses cost $5-10 on KVR or KnobCloud. You could also get one that's included in a MIDI controller or synth's registration code.

Thanks KS... I looked briefly into it and am a little confused so far. Does one have to get Reason or Reason Lite (Are they DAW's?) to get the wrapper (Reason Rack?) for using Parsec in another DAW (in my case, Ardour)? Seems a bit curious, but given your response as well as my interest in Parsec, I'll try to get more time to look more into it and get back to you, including in case I'm still confused.

this is way off topic for the sumu thread... but you never know when reason is going to leave you hanging by yanking the support for their copy protection for older versions so you can't reinstall it.

relevant bit starts at 4:10

Those tall ships are beautiful, too.

[BeeDog]

So, do we still believe this will pop up before the year ends?