Bitwig (!/?)

[grymmjack]

Okay, here's a question: how has ableton treated you? I don't believe in DAW loyalty, but I do believe in trends. Have the Abe's been good to their user base or not?

Yes, they've been good to us. Giving us AMP and the PureMagnetik Retro Synths was a nice gesture for the FUBAR situation that happened with v8 and Gerhard's public apology/vow to the customers.

IMO Ableton has done a very good job at making me a happy guy.

I also love how they reward us M4L customers by highlighting and giving great M4L devices away, as well as the livesets and such.

I've had good luck and good response with their tech support team too. I can't really complain. I'm one of the guys that has had decent luck (knock wood) with v8 since around 8.1.5...

[felonytrance]

Okay, here's a question: how has ableton treated you? I don't believe in DAW loyalty, but I do believe in trends. Have the Abe's been good to their user base or not?

Yes, they've been good to us. Giving us AMP and the PureMagnetik Retro Synths was a nice gesture for the FUBAR situation that happened with v8 and Gerhard's public apology/vow to the customers.

IMO Ableton has done a very good job at making me a happy guy.

I also love how they reward us M4L customers by highlighting and giving great M4L devices away, as well as the livesets and such.

I've had good luck and good response with their tech support team too. I can't really complain. I'm one of the guys that has had decent luck (knock wood) with v8 since around 8.1.5...

Since 8.2 and beyond i think live took a much better turn. They have been nice about giving away free stuff. That being said I would rather not have gifts just a product as promised (SHARE!?!)

MFL+live will make it one of the best software combo's out there once the user library has tons of stuff to play with like reaktor. That and all the good devices are so CPU hungry that it makes them hard to implement in performance.

The just need to focus on a few things to knock bitwig out.

implementation of the features that people have been asking for. 64, dual monitor, clip automation, real curves, OSC support. No new insturments, no effects, no loops, no third party crap. And a cheaper price. They win without a question

Also they need to pay people to really create some amazing FREE MFL stuff to get users interested. I keep hearing about game changing stuff but it's all ipad crap that cost more money to buy, or stuff that you can do with reaktor.

And make the bridge a real game changer not just a half assed project that was simply meant to sell more stuff.

Bitwig needs to team up with people like NI traktor, livid, and other if they stand a chance to really give ableton a run for their money. If they do something with traktor they'd hit it BIG!!

[gckilla]

I'm being a bit selfish with this post, I've got another day to decide whether or not to upgrade from intro at the 25%. The project manager in me says that if the bitwig team is looking at beta for a v1 product, it'll be quite a while before we see bitwig studio...

So do I jump for v8 or wait?

[grymmjack]

I'm being a bit selfish with this post, I've got another day to decide whether or not to upgrade from intro at the 25%. The project manager in me says that if the bitwig team is looking at beta for a v1 product, it'll be quite a while before we see bitwig studio...

So do I jump for v8 or wait?

I'd get it no matter what. Bitwig be damned.

Live is totally worth it and nothing like it (until Bitwig and even still it remains to be seen exactly how much it will deliver).

Also the PM in you should know that a v1 product without any public beta equals a v1 that's not stable which is to be expected, but if you want to be making music with out hassles, it's worth the money to get Live now and then watch what Bitwig does.

I'm excited too, but Live is already here and working for me as well. I'm a huge claes fan, so I've got great hopes, but I've been around too long to think that at v1 they can out do Live 8 entirely.

Just like PreSonus with StudioOne v1, it was good, but not as good as it is now in v2. Keep that in mind. I think it's a similar thing; StudioOne had ex-cubase developers(?) and BitWig has ex-Ableton ones.

I'd go for that v8 if I were you.

[pdxindy]

I'm being a bit selfish with this post, I've got another day to decide whether or not to upgrade from intro at the 25%. The project manager in me says that if the bitwig team is looking at beta for a v1 product, it'll be quite a while before we see bitwig studio...

So do I jump for v8 or wait?

I wouldn't expect Bitwig to be ready for at least a year. Even if it ships sooner, it is a v1 release and it is bound to have some bugs and critical missing features. I think a year is optimistic.

Live is solid and works now... If you want something now, get Live.

[Resonator63]

I wouldn't expect Bitwig to be ready for at least a year. Even if it ships sooner, it is a v1 release and it is bound to have some bugs and critical missing features. I think a year is optimistic.

I guess it depends on how long they've already been working on it.

[gpunk]

I wouldn't expect Bitwig to be ready for at least a year. Even if it ships sooner, it is a v1 release and it is bound to have some bugs and critical missing features. I think a year is optimistic.

I guess it depends on how long they've already been working on it.

No it doesn't, they are already failing by doing a limited list beta rather than a public beta, so 1 of 2 things can happen there, it will take even longer than a year to get a quality v1 out or it will be released with issues that nobody even found when testing, only public betas work but they are just trying to generate hype by making people apply for a mailing list in the hope they will get on the beta team.

[Bronto Scorpio]

I wouldn't expect Bitwig to be ready for at least a year. Even if it ships sooner, it is a v1 release and it is bound to have some bugs and critical missing features. I think a year is optimistic.

I guess it depends on how long they've already been working on it.

No it doesn't, they are already failing by doing a limited list beta rather than a public beta, so 1 of 2 things can happen there, it will take even longer than a year to get a quality v1 out or it will be released with issues that nobody even found when testing, only public betas work but they are just trying to generate hype by making people apply for a mailing list in the hope they will get on the beta team.

The problem with a big software like this developed by a small team and public betas is the support nightmare.
Real beta testers are rare. Most people only apply to betas to use software for free for a time. And these people will constantly complain about everything and ask "How do I do this and that?". That's not the purpose of a beta. Also the same bug will be reported very often etc. It's basically a nightmare to organize and to keep track of everything.
The decision to make the beta limited is good in my opinion.

Cheers
Dennis

[gpunk]

I wouldn't expect Bitwig to be ready for at least a year. Even if it ships sooner, it is a v1 release and it is bound to have some bugs and critical missing features. I think a year is optimistic.

I guess it depends on how long they've already been working on it.

No it doesn't, they are already failing by doing a limited list beta rather than a public beta, so 1 of 2 things can happen there, it will take even longer than a year to get a quality v1 out or it will be released with issues that nobody even found when testing, only public betas work but they are just trying to generate hype by making people apply for a mailing list in the hope they will get on the beta team.

The problem with a big software like this developed by a small team and public betas is the support nightmare.
Real beta testers are rare. Most people only apply to betas to use software for free for a time. And these people will constantly complain about everything and ask "How do I do this and that?". That's not the purpose of a beta. Also the same bug will be reported very often etc. It's basically a nightmare to organize and to keep track of everything.
The decision to make the beta limited is good in my opinion.

Cheers
Dennis

Complete and utter rubbish
Bitwig team is huge compared to Cockos and Cockos have shown that open beta is the only way to go

[Bronto Scorpio]

I wouldn't expect Bitwig to be ready for at least a year. Even if it ships sooner, it is a v1 release and it is bound to have some bugs and critical missing features. I think a year is optimistic.

I guess it depends on how long they've already been working on it.

No it doesn't, they are already failing by doing a limited list beta rather than a public beta, so 1 of 2 things can happen there, it will take even longer than a year to get a quality v1 out or it will be released with issues that nobody even found when testing, only public betas work but they are just trying to generate hype by making people apply for a mailing list in the hope they will get on the beta team.

The problem with a big software like this developed by a small team and public betas is the support nightmare.
Real beta testers are rare. Most people only apply to betas to use software for free for a time. And these people will constantly complain about everything and ask "How do I do this and that?". That's not the purpose of a beta. Also the same bug will be reported very often etc. It's basically a nightmare to organize and to keep track of everything.
The decision to make the beta limited is good in my opinion.

Cheers
Dennis

Complete and utter rubbish
Bitwig team is huge compared to Cockos and Cockos have shown that open beta is the only way to go

They solved the problem because they released 20 updates a day. I guess the Bitwig team wants to deliver a finished product right from the start. Nothing wrong with both methods, just a different strategy.
Will it be bug free? Hell no! Bug free 1.0 software is an oxymoron.

Edit: But all this is just speculation. Let's just wait and see
I'm almost sure I'll be dissappointed since I have really high expectations at the moment. A simple thing like the lack of a freeze function (My PC is f**king old) could already a dealbreaker for me.

Cheers
Dennis

[headquest]

Okay, here's a question: how has ableton treated you? I don't believe in DAW loyalty, but I do believe in trends. Have the Abe's been good to their user base or not?

This is THE question, and it surprises me that so many seem eager to jump to an alternative product that they actually know very little about.

Why the dislike for Ableton? Well, it seems to me that over the years I have seen four main complaints against Ableton that quickly come to mind:

1) Their products are expensive.
2) Live 8 (especially) was unstable upon release
3) By adding DAW features they have neglected performance features
4) They are distracted by partnerships with third parties such as Cycling '74, Serato, etc
5) They failed to deliver the mooted "Share" feature

But just how legitimte are these complaints, and how have Ableton responded to them?

1) They have run an ongoing series of special offers for the past two years. In effect they have radically reduced the price of their products, but without *officially* reducing the headline price, which I would expect them to do with the next actual product announcement

2) They owned up to the stability issue and made an unprecedented appology to their users. They pulled development on new features in order to give their whole focus to making Live 8 stable, and for most users have succeeded admirably in fulfilling this promise.Like many others, I kept using Live 7 for about two years and watched/waited. But Ableton came good. Live 8.2 is fantastic and i've had no problems or crashes with it (unlike recent Reason releases, haha).

3) There's a bunch of great suggestions out there for future performance features users want in Live 9. So let's just see how many are implemented before rushing to condemn them. Also let's wait and see exactly what performance features Bitwig offer before making a comparisson: does it even have a crossfader, tempo nudge, follow actions, launch modes, macros, etc... no evidence to suggest Bitwig actually have any of these features yet. Let's wait and see....

4) Ableton's partnerships with others have brought great benefits for some users. Just tell the big acts using M4L otherwise! The AKAI and Novation partnerships have given us some of the most forward-thinking performance tools on the market - a lead others are struggling to catch up with right now. And even studio composers like myself have benefitted from the inclusion of AAS instruments in the Suite (I use them all the time!). If Bitwig fail to forge similar partnerships they will forever trail a long way behind Ableton. Partnerships have produced innovations that Bitwig will have a problem replicating if they remain 3 guys on their own.

5) "Share" was only ever advertised as a future feature, with a beta included in Live 8. Nobody paid for it. And when that beta threw up issues that Ableton needed to take its time to solve, they decided to put it temporariliy on the back burner. I don't believe for one moment that their vision for it ended that day: simply they want to find a better way to implement it. Also, once again they were completely honest with users and appologised for the delay. And IIRC they (or SoundCloud reps) have already stated they have SoundCloud integrations etc in Live 9.

I find it hard to spot anything on this list where I think Ableton have completely failed or behaved dishonourably towards users. Sure they aren't perfect. No company is. But I do think they have learnt from their mistakes and made a concerted effort to be fair to users and deliver on their promises. I'm not ready to give up on them or condemn them to public stoning just yet

And as others said already, their customer service, etc, are better than many.

[spaceman]

Okay, here's a question: how has ableton treated you? I don't believe in DAW loyalty, but I do believe in trends. Have the Abe's been good to their user base or not?

This is THE question, and it surprises me that so many seem eager to jump to an alternative product that they actually know very little about.

People are just eager to try something new.
I wouldn't expect many real Abe Live users to deflect to anywhere.

[headquest]

People are just eager to try something new.
I wouldn't expect many real Abe Live users to deflect to anywhere.

Generally agree, especially considering that by the time this v1.0 beta turns into a commercially viable product, Live 9 details will no doubt have led to a fresh round of Ableton excitement

[headquest]

Bitwig team is huge compared to Cockos and Cockos have shown that open beta is the only way to go

Really? Bitwig has three developers, which can hardly be described as "huge" compared to anyone (and Cockos has never exactly been a one-man-show).

[hibidy]

lolz