Reason 3 is simply awesome.

[johnnytluxury]

Any thread with "Reason" in the title should automatically be moved to HPC.

It's important to acknowledge that KVR existed firstly for developers, and the focus is clearly on "open standard plugins". The rationale is certainly clear, but there is now something of a problem with this approach. Because KVR has become an immensely popular site with people who aren't themselves developers, but simply musicians, teachers, writers, etc who find KVR a useful place to get news and hang out. And to this contingent, the bias of KVR can be rather misleading.

For example, the RTAS format is not "open standard", so is not included. Look through the "instruments" listings here and you can easily find out which instruments are available in AU, DX or VST format… but not whether there is an RTAS version. So the product details for the plugins are intentionally incomplete… and misleading.

The point was made by one of the Reason-haters earlier in this thread that the Propellerheads have deliberately ignored the current industry standard protocols, and so have been left behind. Well, let's test that theory by checking out which industry standard protocols the five longest-running professional-grade hosts support:

Pro Tools: Rewire, RTAS
Digital Performer: Rewire, AU, RTAS
Logic: Rewire, AU, VST
Cubase: Rewire, VST, AU, (?DX)
Sonar: Rewire, DX, VST-wrapper.

Well, I can only see ONE truly universal standard on that list. And that's the Rewire protocol that Propellerhead actually created. And the reason that Rewire is in ALL the major products is that host developers realise the immense success of Reason, and want their hosts to be equipped for it.

Now let's consider the others:
VST is in just two of the five, although you can use wrappers (supplied in the case of Sonar) to get VSTs into the others. Digidesign reject it as an unstable format, and insist on RTAS which they can monitor the quality of. Fair enough. That is exactly why more than 90% of commercial releases pass through Pro Tools - it is reliable, thanks in part to RTAS.
AU is hardly standard. Even on the Mac platform it is not in all the four products.
DX seems to be on the way out altogether.
RTAS is a genuine industry standard for reasons already mentioned.

So in conclusion, the people who suggest Propellerhead are lagging behind industry standards, or stubbornly refusing to keep up to date are entirely misguided. Propellerhead invented the only protocol on the list that is truly universal! (Of course they also invented the REX format, which is also an industry standard). The only problem here is with the inaccurate perception that KVR somewhat creates for musicians because of its (historically justified) bias.

Genius, you ARE the smartest man in KVR!

[RoyNoahJones]

I didn't expect this thread to end so quickly

LOL

[headquest]

Genius, you ARE the smartest man in KVR!

definitely not!

but cheers

[John Vulich]

It's important to acknowledge that KVR existed firstly for developers, and the focus is clearly on "open standard plugins". The rationale is certainly clear, but there is now something of a problem with this approach. Because KVR has become an immensely popular site with people who aren't themselves developers, but simply musicians, teachers, writers, etc who find KVR a useful place to get news and hang out. And to this contingent, the bias of KVR can be rather misleading.

For example, the RTAS format is not "open standard", so is not included. Look through the "instruments" listings here and you can easily find out which instruments are available in AU, DX or VST format… but not whether there is an RTAS version. So the product details for the plugins are intentionally incomplete… and misleading.

The point was made by one of the Reason-haters earlier in this thread that the Propellerheads have deliberately ignored the current industry standard protocols, and so have been left behind. Well, let's test that theory by checking out which industry standard protocols the five longest-running professional-grade hosts support:

Pro Tools: Rewire, RTAS
Digital Performer: Rewire, AU, RTAS
Logic: Rewire, AU, VST
Cubase: Rewire, VST, AU, (?DX)
Sonar: Rewire, DX, VST-wrapper.

Well, I can only see ONE truly universal standard on that list. And that's the Rewire protocol that Propellerhead actually created. And the reason that Rewire is in ALL the major products is that host developers realise the immense success of Reason, and want their hosts to be equipped for it.

Now let's consider the others:
VST is in just two of the five, although you can use wrappers (supplied in the case of Sonar) to get VSTs into the others. Digidesign reject it as an unstable format, and insist on RTAS which they can monitor the quality of. Fair enough. That is exactly why more than 90% of commercial releases pass through Pro Tools - it is reliable, thanks in part to RTAS.
AU is hardly standard. Even on the Mac platform it is not in all the four products.
DX seems to be on the way out altogether.
RTAS is a genuine industry standard for reasons already mentioned.

So in conclusion, the people who suggest Propellerhead are lagging behind industry standards, or stubbornly refusing to keep up to date are entirely misguided. Propellerhead invented the only protocol on the list that is truly universal! (Of course they also invented the REX format, which is also an industry standard). The only problem here is with the inaccurate perception that KVR somewhat creates for musicians because of its (historically justified) bias.

Nice try but your post doesn't really address the pertinent criticisms directly. The criticisms, that people have of the Propellerheads, are not merely that they are "lagging behind" in some overall sense. This is a gross simplification of the real issues that you seemed to have deliberately focused on to skew the discussion. One of the major criticisms is directed at their refusal to implement the ability of Reason to host plugins. All of the programs that you listed allow usage of some sort of plugins. In this regard the Propellerheads are indeed lagging behind the rest of the industry. If their concern is maintaining stability in Reason, then they could easily develop their own plugin standard, like RTAS. They seem to refuse to develop the program in this direction.

[Meffy]

If being a host were where they were headed, they would indeed be lagging behind. But the Props have said many times that it's not in their plans. How can you lag behind reaching a goal when it's not your goal? It worked that way I would seriously be lagging in my effort to become the president of Jerry Falwell's "Liberty" University.

[John Vulich]

If being a host were where they were headed, they would indeed be lagging behind. But the Props have said many times that it's not in their plans. How can you lag behind reaching a goal when it's not your goal? It worked that way I would seriously be lagging in my effort to become the president of Jerry Falwell's "Liberty" University.

Sigh... I'm just repeating the criticisms that other people seem to be focusing on regarding Reason. Obviously, if the Propellerheads aren't interested in integrating plugins into Reason, then thay are not "lagging behind" by their own standards. However, as far as many end users are concerned, they are "lagging behind" according to their needs and desires. It's all about what point of view you want to take in framing the debate.

[Meffy]

True enough. I figure those who want a host will go for an alternative such as FL, Orion, or others I wot not of. Part of the problem IMO is that Reason looks so grabbable that a lot of people want that interface, those cables and CVs and trigs and stuff, but on their terms. Which ain't gonna be, most likely.

Me, I've been wanting bidirectional Rewire with audio in and out for years. I don't think I'll get it either, but I did register my wishes along with all the others who want something similar. Then I let it rest.

Now on that other issue: could you be bribed into helping me achieve virtual dictatorship over Falwell's training ground for future terrorists? =^_^=

[Teksonik]

Liberty University has the nation's number one ranked Debating Team. I find that really terrifying.

[Meffy]

Actually, they're a de-baiting team. Trained fishes. Amazing, they never get caught.

Plus, let us all remember that "the devil can cite scripture to his purpose."

[Hovmod]

Liberty University has the nation's number one ranked Debating Team. I find that really terrifying.

Yes but no but yes but no but yes but no....

[alienmachine]

I haven't thought Reason would cause as much of a stir

[headquest]

I haven't thought Reason will cause this much stir

So you dont hang out here much, right?

[alienmachine]

I haven't thought Reason would cause as much of a stir

So you dont hang out here much, right?

I'm starting to do it more frequently..

[headquest]

Nice try but your post doesn't really address the pertinent criticisms directly.

I was dealing specifically with the charge that they are lagging in terms of integration protocols.

One of the major criticisms is directed at their refusal to implement the ability of Reason to host plugins.

Why ever would they want to? The whole ethos of Reason is to provide a complete set of instruments/effects in one rack. Third party plugins would almost certainly blow that concept.

All of the programs that you listed allow usage of some sort of plugins.

Specifically they all allow use of Reason

In this regard the Propellerheads are indeed lagging behind the rest of the industry. If their concern is maintaining stability in Reason, then they could easily develop their own plugin standard, like RTAS. They seem to refuse to develop the program in this direction.

I don't think that stability (to follow up your RTAS example) is their big concern. I think that providing a complete rack of integrated tools, including all the CV cabling etc, is their concern.

People who want Reason to develop into a plugin host have missed the basic concept. They obviously should look elsewhere, because Reason is an instrument, not a host.

Equally it is silly - well, very misguided - to compare Reason with hosts. Valid comparisons would be to compare Reason against plugin instruments and effects. As such I think it actually represents very good value for money and runs very efficiently.

[John Vulich]

So you dont hang out here much, right?

I'm starting to do it more frequently..

For the love of god!!! Get out while you still can!!!