If you had to stick to one DAW, which one would it be?

[machinesworking]

I really don't know why anyone would need to use more than one host....I doubt there is a good reason

Not that this hasen't been rehashed to death, but here's some basics.
20 years ago Reason rewired into a DAW got you way more instruments for cheaper than buying the typical price for a VSTi at the time.

When Live was introduced there was absolutely nothing like it at the time for real time performance and time stretching audio in a creative way, then they introduced Max 4 Live which is Max MSP in a DAW, which is real power, you really wouldn't need anything else if you wanted. Jitter in Live does Vj style stuff right in your DAW. Not to mention Clip composing which is still only really complete in Live and Bitwig, it's pretty good in Logic and has some cool implementation in DP, but it does not control tempo via Session Clips like Live and Bitwig can.

Conversely the older style DAWs offer score editors, advanced movie scoring features, Articulation Mapping, multiple automation types, lighter CPU hits, and years of little enhancements to the whole thing.

I don't really get owning more than one of the same kind of DAW beyond easier collaboration with people that use that DAW, but I've always owned Live and worked with Digital Performer or Logic as the old school DAW for more complex CPU intensive things. DAWs are definitely not all the same.
IMO there are Clip and UX based DAWs like Live and Bitwig, the more traditional linear sequencer kitchen sink DAWs like DP, Logic, Cubase, Studio One, Reaper. Then there are the odd ducks, ReNoise, FL Studio, Traction etc. Pro Tools is it's own thing, a DAW made specifically for recording studios..

[AnX]

Yeah, I'm sure features differ, but I'm pretty sure, as a song writer, you can do it in a single host....its just a means to an end after all...

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

I am in on that. Cannot see any reason why we would need two DAWS to get a little extra features. In the spring 2020 I used Reason as a plugin in logic because I got a litte hooked on Logic's autodrummer and wanted to use them simultanously. Did not take me long to figure out I could make my own autodrummer in Reason. Bye, bye, Logic. It was not a pleasure, but rather a clusterfck experience. A flowkiller. Reason is more than enough to us.

[machinesworking]

Yeah, I'm sure features differ, but I'm pretty sure, as a song writer, you can do it in a single host....its just a means to an end after all...

As a song writer all I really need is a guitar. Believe me if I was satisfied in one DAW that's all I would use. I'm not encouraging you or anyone here really, stick to one DAW, limitations work for most people, but to pretend the differences aren't there, it's just weird to me. The two DAWs I use Digital Performer and Live are as different as night and day, in every way. DP started off as a MIDI sequencer, then started emulating Pro Tools, Live started off as a looping pitch stretching DJ tool with no MIDI sequencing. The approach is just wildly different, DP is like Reaper, it takes months to build your workflow, key commands and templates. Live is the exact opposite, drag and drop interface, WYSIWYG.
I hate the auto comparisons but it really fits here. Some people own two, you can move everything in a car, but if you own a truck or van it's much easier. You're not able to drive both at once, but that's not the point. a daily commute might be better in a fuel efficient car etc.

[JHernandez]

I'm sticking with BItwig until it's defunct or the world burns.

In all honesty I'm just a one DAW kinda man, that's why. Too many options distracts me from the point of all this.

[BONES]

No, you claimed to do 95% of the work, which clearly discredits his contribution. I never mentioned it at all.

I was thinking more of the extra time it takes me when I'm doing it all myself. i.e. When I write a whole song, it doesn't take much longer than when Sik gives me the ideas to start from. Why it works for us is that my contribution allows him the space to play around and find the next ideas.

it's the 1 in 6 or so songs version of how I and most people write. the other 5 are song ideas that stay around for a long time, and either never get used or become songs. which leads to the next point..

I've never really been like that. Until our last album, pretty much every song we'd ever written had made it onto an album. It's very rare for me to come up with an idea that doesn't end up being a song. If I spend more than 15 minutes playing with an idea, it will invariably end up being a song or being included in a song. And the latter happens quite a lot - we combine two or three different ideas into one song. Maybe my talent is having an ear for what's going to work and what isn't, who knows?

You're not getting it, the speed at which you can get ideas down can directly affect your creative process. Knowing 10% of a DAW you can of course get things done, but at some point you're bogged down by your lack of knowledge.

I'm not seeing how. I know the bits I need to know as well as anyone and I'm rarely concerned with getting things down quickly. e.g. I never play anything in, I always enter it into the piano roll with a mouse, even if it is something I have been playing.

You're basically arguing that you only need to know bar chords

Mate, I don't even know what that means.

Know your instrument, know your DAW.

I'm the same with instruments, I only learn the bits I'll actually use. e.g. Apparently Pigments has a great ARP but I've never looked at it because I have no need of it. DUNE also apparently has a great wavetable editor but shoot me if I ever want to f**k around with that shit. Similarly, patterns in Studio One seem really powerful, so I took the time to learn all about them, but I never use them. Learning it was a waste of time. Then there are things like comping, which don't really offer any advantages to me over the way I work now, so why would I bother learning how to use those features?

2 You're not using the DAW in the song writing process as you've mentioned. So I know DP well enough to know that after all the MIDI is laid down there's functions in it to erase the C3 note on beat 3 between bars 48 and 96 if I need to, as opposed to you who using DP wouldn't know that because you didn't bother reading through the manual to that level. So you would repeat a task 48 times as opposed to typing in a few commands.

Actually, I'd delete all but Bar 48 in one go, delete the note there and then hold down "D" until it had copied the pattern back out to Bar 96. Or I'd use a pattern so I only had to change it once. I'm rarely in a hurry when I'm working. I like to do things longhand, it gives me time to ruminate on what I've done and where I'm going. I don't really use a lot of keyboard shortcuts, even, I prefer to do it the hard way. It is a creative endeavour, after all, not a mechanical process.

this works, if all 48 bars are identical

If I use patterns they don't have to be the same, because I can use probability to create the variation. But there are other easy ways of doing it. e.g. Cut the clip at Bar 48 and 96, CTRL+Click the note in the piano roll to select them all, delete them, put the one you want to keep back in once, then duplicate it across the selection. That said, in that situation I probably would go through and delete them one at a time - it's not really that hard to do, it would probably takes less than a minute. It just feels slow because it's repetitive (but I like repetitive).

You should read the manual of your DAW, that you're arguing against this is just some wild silliness.

If the manual was written in a way that facilitated reading it, I probably would, but it's designed around searching for answers to specific queries, only it's really krap at finding what you want.

Point is there's a lot more pencil tool in a piano roll composers than you think. For certain things, it's actually a great way to work.

As I said, it's exactly how I work and it definitely feels like I am in the minority, even around here (and 32 keys is my preference but 25 is perfectly usable for me, even on stage).

Well, I recently experienced the benefits of that again by diving into one of Vurt's nightmares for inspiration and made a tune in a week (Jotuns). Usually it takes at least a couple of months.

I usually create a song in a night, what takes time is making it as good as it can be.

Oldschool EBM is my youth too.

I was in my 30s before I knew it existed, although I'd been making it without knowing what it was for 7 or 8 years beforehand. To me it was just my music. THIS ALBUM, for example, is all stuff I wrote long before I'd ever heard of EBM. I still hadn't heard of it when it was released in 1989. Didn't know who Front 242 were or Nitzer Ebb or FLA, I'd never heard any of their stuff.

to pretend the differences aren't there, it's just weird to me.

What I find weird, and what no-one has ever attempted to explain to me, is how the limitations of switching between DAWs can possibly be worth it for the one or two little features one might lack over the other.

DP is like Reaper, it takes months to build your workflow, key commands and templates.

Why do you need to do any of that? I've never felt the need at all. In fact, if I felt like that might be a good idea, I'd probably start looking for a new host. I did customise a few hotkeys in Studio One when I first installed it but when I moved it across to my new laptop, I didn't bother with them. I use a handful of existing ones but that's all.

I hate the auto comparisons but it really fits here. Some people own two, you can move everything in a car, but if you own a truck or van it's much easier. You're not able to drive both at once, but that's not the point. a daily commute might be better in a fuel efficient car etc.

I've always believed that anyone who feels they need more than one car just hasn't bought the right one in the first place and is too stubborn to admit it. I really wanted a Mazda MX-5 (Miata) but it doesn't have enough luggage space so I bought a BRZ instead, where my brother bought the MX-5 and ended up also buying another car because the MX-5 is too impractical. He won't admit it, though, he says one is for work and the other for the weekend. My car works the same all week long.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

Oldschool EBM is my youth too.

I was in my 30s before I knew it existed, although I'd been making it without knowing what it was for 7 or 8 years beforehand. (…) https://deathlyquiet1.bandcamp.com/album/transmission

If I did not know you as such nice, honest and actually skilled guy within his field, I’d call you a liar on this. You have simply invented the genre in parallel with the pioneers. Seriously, I have not heard this album, but some of your recent stuff. Same and yet different in the good way. Me like. E.g. Castle Deep. Never heard you sing like that. 80s remniscent in style. Is it even you? Great. Would love more of this to vary your expression.

I usually create a song in a night, what takes time is making it as good as it can be.

I have no clue what it will all sound like until the end. Moderation happens in the proces. Our only guidlines are the chosen scales/modes and techniques used to get this or that old folk spirit, but as to melodies and harmonies, they grow as we proceed. In the end, I get tired of it, and just want to move on. If I have regrets, and I do, I say “better luck next time then”

[machinesworking]

No, you claimed to do 95% of the work, which clearly discredits his contribution. I never mentioned it at all.

I was thinking more of the extra time it takes me when I'm doing it all myself. i.e. When I write a whole song, it doesn't take much longer than when Sik gives me the ideas to start from. Why it works for us is that my contribution allows him the space to play around and find the next ideas.

You're assuming all his ideas come from the fast inspiration method, which frankly is the rarest method of songwriting. Again, most of the time people who can write dozens of songs a year, their output is probably less than a third songs they came up with and finished verse, chorus, break, bridges, etc. in 24 hours. For me the ratio is probably more like 1 out of 10 songs are finished in 24 hours. I've always got a cache of at least a dozen songs without a break or chorus I like yet, it's pretty typical.

it's the 1 in 6 or so songs version of how I and most people write. the other 5 are song ideas that stay around for a long time, and either never get used or become songs. which leads to the next point..

I've never really been like that. Until our last album, pretty much every song we'd ever written had made it onto an album. It's very rare for me to come up with an idea that doesn't end up being a song. If I spend more than 15 minutes playing with an idea, it will invariably end up being a song or being included in a song. And the latter happens quite a lot - we combine two or three different ideas into one song. Maybe my talent is having an ear for what's going to work and what isn't, who knows?

You admitted already you mostly let him come up with the guts of the song, you help him flesh it out. One of the reasons songwriting teams work is because it's easier to hear what would make a great break or chorus etc. in something you didn't start.

I'm not seeing how. I know the bits I need to know as well as anyone and I'm rarely concerned with getting things down quickly. e.g. I never play anything in, I always enter it into the piano roll with a mouse, even if it is something I have been playing.

IMO again this is the slowest way to do this. It's much easier if you're really familiar with the way quantization works in your DAW to play in the MIDI, then quantize it, repair what the quantize misses.

You're basically arguing that you only need to know bar chords

Mate, I don't even know what that means.

That actually made me laugh, thanks.
I meant you're arguing you only need three chords to play, it's a punk rock approach.

Know your instrument, know your DAW.

I'm the same with instruments, I only learn the bits I'll actually use. e.g. Apparently Pigments has a great ARP but I've never looked at it because I have no need of it. DUNE also apparently has a great wavetable editor but shoot me if I ever want to f**k around with that shit. Similarly, patterns in Studio One seem really powerful, so I took the time to learn all about them, but I never use them. Learning it was a waste of time. Then there are things like comping, which don't really offer any advantages to me over the way I work now, so why would I bother learning how to use those features?

Because most people would actually try using a feature that saves time before discrediting it. This is where your age shows, you can't teach an old dog new tricks is an adage that works here.

Actually, I'd delete all but Bar 48 in one go, delete the note there and then hold down "D" until it had copied the pattern back out to Bar 96. Or I'd use a pattern so I only had to change it once. I'm rarely in a hurry when I'm working. I like to do things longhand, it gives me time to ruminate on what I've done and where I'm going. I don't really use a lot of keyboard shortcuts, even, I prefer to do it the hard way. It is a creative endeavour, after all, not a mechanical process.

IMO there's more than enough in the creative process that's hard or left brained, anything that makes dull repetitive tasks easier is better.

this works, if all 48 bars are identical

If I use patterns they don't have to be the same, because I can use probability to create the variation. But there are other easy ways of doing it. e.g. Cut the clip at Bar 48 and 96, CTRL+Click the note in the piano roll to select them all, delete them, put the one you want to keep back in once, then duplicate it across the selection. That said, in that situation I probably would go through and delete them one at a time - it's not really that hard to do, it would probably takes less than a minute. It just feels slow because it's repetitive (but I like repetitive).

This is a legit reason, but it's pretty dammed OCD, most people are pretty happy to learn shortcuts. Something about an old dog...

If the manual was written in a way that facilitated reading it, I probably would, but it's designed around searching for answers to specific queries, only it's really krap at finding what you want.

OK I can't argue against that, most manuals are terribly written, but the statement applies to just knowing your DAW in general, at some point I take little time to familiarize myself with the interface. You hate keyboard shortcuts and love the mouse, you're the PacMan guy, I'm the Defender guy. I've always found them useful. The fact that DAWs all have different names or ways of navigating the interface is annoying. I only recently started with a blank template to mess with selections, because DP changes record enabled tracks without changing track selection, so just the other day I found out Shift,Alt, and up/down arrow keys change track selection.
To your credit that wouldn't be in the manual, but the point was know the interface for your DAW. Just spending 5 minutes attempting various commands to see if I could decipher which selected tracks is going to save me a lot of hassle.

Point is there's a lot more pencil tool in a piano roll composers than you think. For certain things, it's actually a great way to work.

As I said, it's exactly how I work and it definitely feels like I am in the minority, even around here (and 32 keys is my preference but 25 is perfectly usable for me, even on stage).

No you're the norm, the only difference is as I described above, a lot of people play it in then heavily quantize it. KVR has a larger than average amount of people over 50 who play an instrument or two who aren't into mechanical dance music.

long before I'd ever heard of EBM. I still hadn't heard of it when it was released in 1989. Didn't know who Front 242 were or Nitzer Ebb or FLA, I'd never heard any of their stuff.

I bought Official Version in 1987 and La Folie in the same day. Great records by those groups. I had been listening to Industrial and other oddball electronic music since 1980 or so when Devo Freedom Of Choice came out, that was my gateway drug, beyond my stepfathers Bowie records. It's not surprising to me that you weren't really into first wave Industrial, but yeah, I started on Devo, downward spiral to the Residents, Kraftwerk, then Industrial when I finally could hear the stuff in 82, TG, SPK, Whitehouse, NON, then Skinny Puppy, Einstürzende Neubauten, Zev, and on to EBM, Front 242, and Nitzer Ebb etc.

What I find weird, and what no-one has ever attempted to explain to me, is how the limitations of switching between DAWs can possibly be worth it for the one or two little features one might lack over the other.

Your memory is going, we've discussed the differences in DAWs forever. So I would say 70% of the stuff I do, I do entirely in DP11, the reasons for this are pretty straightforward, better MIDI editing, better setups for orchestral work, CPU hit is low, lot's of arcane features when I need them etc.

With Live, it's a bit like Studio One, who copied the whole drag and drop thing from Live, you fire it up with a blank slate and you get something going quick. It's more like working with an old sampler workstation, limited, but super fast in it's limitations. I love the crazy glitch sounds from scrolling XO's 120,000 drum sounds with the mouse, record 4 or five takes of doing that, right click the audio file and slice those 5 snips into a drum module.
I still go back to DP for mixing and mastering though, the older style DAWs just have a better take on that, too limited most of the time in Live.

The approach's of DP and Live are so different that for me it facilitates a different approach. Film score, mastering, mixing, complex arrangements are all DP11. Electronic music, sample mangling, experimenting with audio files, more traditional verse chorus verse chorus break verse chorus chorus type arrangements, Live.

DP is like Reaper, it takes months to build your workflow, key commands and templates.

Why do you need to do any of that? I've never felt the need at all. In fact, if I felt like that might be a good idea, I'd probably start looking for a new host. I did customise a few hotkeys in Studio One when I first installed it but when I moved it across to my new laptop, I didn't bother with them. I use a handful of existing ones but that's all.

You're doing EBM, I've never seen an EBM arrangement that had a huge orchestra template laid out in it, I've never seen an orchestral mock up for a film score where the person showing it was all, "yeah I start from scratch" I just like naming dozens of tracks every time I start up the DAW, makes it a more creative experience."

I've always believed that anyone who feels they need more than one car just hasn't bought the right one in the first place and is too stubborn to admit it. I really wanted a Mazda MX-5 (Miata) but it doesn't have enough luggage space so I bought a BRZ instead, where my brother bought the MX-5 and ended up also buying another car because the MX-5 is too impractical. He won't admit it, though, he says one is for work and the other for the weekend. My car works the same all week long.

Your friend just like having two cars, why is that a problem? Most guys I used to work with in the trades had two cars whether they were married or not, because most trucks can't fit more than one or two children. Plus trucks are gas hogs, even my little Tacoma runs at around 21mpg. Granted it has a heavy ladder rack and fiberglass camper on it, but in general trucks don't get the milage cars do. So having two vehicles isn't a dumb thing at all. Personally I just never find a reason to afford it.

[Aryez187]

Cubase... especially if they really ditch the USB dongle nonsense in 12.

[magog]

I only recently started with a blank template to mess with selections, because DP changes record enabled tracks without changing track selection, so just the other day I found out Shift,Alt, and up/down arrow keys change track selection.

Whoa - thank you! I remember searching high and low for that feature in DP and not being able to find it. Maybe it's new in DP11?

Still can't select regions in DP with the keyboard like you can with Logic though, right?

[machinesworking]

I only recently started with a blank template to mess with selections, because DP changes record enabled tracks without changing track selection, so just the other day I found out Shift,Alt, and up/down arrow keys change track selection.

Whoa - thank you! I remember searching high and low for that feature in DP and not being able to find it. Maybe it's new in DP11?

Still can't select regions in DP with the keyboard like you can with Logic though, right?

I haven't tried that, honestly I never used that feature much in Logic when I used it, but I'll have a go at it. The issue is pretty straightforward, MIDI regions or object oriented MIDI comes to DP in the way of Clips, and it's not what I would call a fully baked feature yet. Only "parsed" MIDI gets to use the Graphic, Drum, Event, Waveform editors. Clip based object oriented MIDI has it's own Clip Editor. Plus you can have both parsed and Clip based MIDI in the same sequence, or even in the same track, so keyboard bases selection is a little tricky that way.

I don't think the Shift Alt up/down arrow selection thing is new, it's just not documented well, I wouldn't even know how to search for it in the manual, as it's a keyboard shortcut it might just not be in the manual at all.

[magog]

Still can't select regions in DP with the keyboard like you can with Logic though, right?

I haven't tried that, honestly I never used that feature much in Logic when I used it, but I'll have a go at it.

Thanks! It's pretty much become a dealbreaker for me with DAWs. I used DP for a couple of years and thought I could get used to not using keyboard navigation, but coming to Logic and being able to use the keyboard was just a huge relief - I don't think I can go back.

There are still a bunch of great features I miss from DP - chunks, track search, all the track hide/show stuff, the spotlight–like "run command", etc., etc., etc.... But DP was so keyboard unfriendly it was infuriating.

I don't think the Shift Alt up/down arrow selection thing is new, it's just not documented well, I wouldn't even know how to search for it in the manual, as it's a keyboard shortcut it might just not be in the manual at all.

I remember searching the commands for it. I did get prev/next track working with buttons on my Faderport, so it appeared to be supported at some level and it was frustrating that there was no key command.

Actually, I'm looking in 10.13 Commands window and I still can't find it. What is it called?

[BONES]

If I did know you as such nice, honest and actually skilled guy within his field, I’d call you a liar on this.

It was the 1980s, there was no internet, you only knew about what was happening where you lived. We used to get Melody Maker and NME but they were always 3 months out of date so nobody read them. We relied on local magazines and TV shows to find to about anything and EBM would have been so far off the radar we'd have had no chance of finding out about it. All I had were bands like this to encourage me -

Castle Deep. Never heard you sing like that. 80s remniscent in style. Is it even you?

Of course it's me. It was just me back then. I didn't start working with Sik until 1996. But I still do different things, vocally, like this song from our 4th album -



And if you listen to this, you might think I am actually singing (Dog forbid!).

[machinesworking]

Thanks! It's pretty much become a dealbreaker for me with DAWs. I used DP for a couple of years and thought I could get used to not using keyboard navigation, but coming to Logic and being able to use the keyboard was just a huge relief - I don't think I can go back.

There are still a bunch of great features I miss from DP - chunks, track search, all the track hide/show stuff, the spotlight–like "run command", etc., etc., etc.... But DP was so keyboard unfriendly it was infuriating.

Yeah, I don't get that feeling at all here. In fact in terms of specific tools I would choose DP over Logic that way. I bought the FCP Logic educational bundle a couple years ago so I keep it around for older songs I did in Logic, but I really really hate what they did to the tool pallet, it's this little dance of commands now, easier to just mouse the pallet, when before it was single letters, like it is in DP.
There really isn't a part of DP that can't be controlled by a keyboard shortcut, we might literally be talking about the only area where DP has you grab a mouse, but IMO selecting things in the arrangement is something you do to edit data, that will require the mouse over a key command anyway.

I remember searching the commands for it. I did get prev/next track working with buttons on my Faderport, so it appeared to be supported at some level and it was frustrating that there was no key command.

Actually, I'm looking in 10.13 Commands window and I still can't find it. What is it called?

Dunno, but the one thing I wish DP did was allow you to reverse search a command, as of now what you do is find an empty command and punch in the command you're trying to reverse search, so punching in Shift Alt, then the up/down arrow into that blank command space will trigger a dialog box telling you it's used by xxx, then you have the name.
What I wish all DAWs did was give you a list of commands that aren't being used, so you wouldn't have to search for an unused command like a cro mag.

[BONES]

You're assuming all his ideas come from the fast inspiration method

I'm not assuming anything. I have been working with the guy for 25 years, I know his process as well as I know my own.

I've always got a cache of at least a dozen songs without a break or chorus I like yet, it's pretty typical.

I've had one of those since about 2000 but I don't think I have ever used anything that's ended up there, so I stopped adding to it ages ago. I find a thing usually works or it doesn't and if it needs so much time to make it work, it always turns out not to have been worth the effort.

You admitted already you mostly let him come up with the guts of the song, you help him flesh it out.

Most of the time but I do also write songs on my own.

One of the reasons songwriting teams work is because it's easier to hear what would make a great break or chorus etc. in something you didn't start.

With us I think it's more a difference in approach. He doesn't even think about choruses and verses most of the time. He writes much more linearly, like dance music, whereas I think in terms of rock songs - intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, break, chorus, chorus, outro - or some variation on that formula.

IMO again this is the slowest way to do this. It's much easier if you're really familiar with the way quantization works in your DAW to play in the MIDI, then quantize it, repair what the quantize misses.

But I'm not in a hurry. As I said, I like to give myself time to ruminate on it as I work and most of the time I don't even have a keyboard set up, it's just the laptop and mouse. I only bother with a keyboard when I'm rehearsing for a gig. In production I don't really need it.

I meant you're arguing you only need three chords to play, it's a punk rock approach.

That's EXACTLY what it is, what has always been my inspiration. That's why we like to call what we do Cyberpunk. I think it was Robert Fripp who once said that there were only two ways to do something really new and unique - you either had to be better than everyone else who has gone before you or so completely clueless that you weren't constricted by any of the norms of musical composition. The latter always seemed like less work to me, so I went with it.

Because most people would actually try using a feature that saves time before discrediting it.

Again, saving time is not important to me. Doing a better job matters so I'll look for things that will facilitate that but time-saving simply doesn't matter. Like I said, even when I can think of faster ways of doing something, I'll usually pick the slower way. e.g. If I look at features I've discovered in S1 over the last few months, the only ones I've incorporated are using "G" to glue clips together (don't know any other way of doing it) and the wide mixer, because it gives me more room for the arrangement window without hiding anything away.

This is where your age shows, you can't teach an old dog new tricks is an adage that works here.

Except that in the last 3 or 4 years I have taught myself how to use Bitwig, Cubase and Studio One. I've also taught myself how to use Blender for 3D modelling and animation, after more than 20 years as a 3DS Max guy, and by the end of this year I want to be proficient in DaVinci Resolve, too. That's probably more "new tricks" than I learned in the prior decade.

This is a legit reason, but it's pretty dammed OCD

Welcome to my world. I think being a bit OCD makes me much better at production - a place for everything and everything in it's place. Check once, check twice, then check again.

most people are pretty happy to learn shortcuts. Something about an old dog...

Most people probably have their computer keyboard where they can reach it. In my work, it's usually behind a giant Wacom tablet and not at all convenient and if I'm rehearsing, it's behind the MIDI controller I've got set up. The mouse is almost always easier for me.

DP changes record enabled tracks without changing track selection, so just the other day I found out Shift,Alt, and up/down arrow keys change track selection.

S1 is the same so I just click the track I want to record to. My right hand is pretty much always on the mouse so it just feels easier.

To your credit that wouldn't be in the manual, but the point was know the interface for your DAW. Just spending 5 minutes attempting various commands to see if I could decipher which selected tracks is going to save me a lot of hassle.

That's pretty much how I work things out. If I think it makes sense that a certain thing should be possible, I'll try various key combos until I stumble upon the correct one. e.g. I thought it should be possible to select just a particular note in the PR, so I clicked, then Shift-clicked, then Alt-clicked and finally Ctrl-clicked and it worked. Very useful when in drum editor mode.

I bought Official Version in 1987 and La Folie in the same day. Great records by those groups.

I bought La Folie the week it came out in 1981. Sadly, a bridge too far for me where The Stranglers are concerned. I'm very much a No More Heroes/Black & White kinda fan.

It's not surprising to me that you weren't really into first wave Industrial

I had quite a bit of it - 23 Skidoo, Test Dept, SPK, Chrome, early Cabs. I used to buy a lot of records based on the band name or the album title or the artwork but none of that stuff ever quite worked for me. I'd heard TG before I'd ever had a chance to buy it and I didn't like it at all. Of all of it, I think Test Dept's The Unacceptable Face of Freedom is the only album I liked and it is something I still put on occasionally today. Not big on Neubauten, either, or Laibach. All my mates loved The Residents, I thought they were stupid. Never understood why anyone like Kraftwerk, either. It's just boring.

Your memory is going, we've discussed the differences in DAWs forever.

No, I'm talking about the massive f**k-around of taking a project from one to another. You either have to render out stems or export a MIDI file and save off presets for all the instruments and effects so you can spend hours rebuilding it in the other host. I just can't see how that can possibly be worth the hassle just for a few extra mixing tools or whatever.

With Live, it's a bit like Studio One, who copied the whole drag and drop thing from Live

I think D'n'D was around a while before Live. I rarely use it. In fact I f**king hate it most of the time. It's for Kindergarten kids.

I still go back to DP for mixing and mastering though, the older style DAWs just have a better take on that, too limited most of the time in Live.

But how much of a f**k around is that? Surely Live can't be that bad for mixing? it's got a mixer, what more do you need?

The approach's of DP and Live are so different that for me it facilitates a different approach.

To me that just says that neither are worth using. If it's a Digital Audio Workstation, then it should meet all of your Digital Audio needs. Otherwise, what's the point?

You're doing EBM, I've never seen an EBM arrangement that had a huge orchestra template laid out in it, I've never seen an orchestral mock up for a film score where the person showing it was all, "yeah I start from scratch" I just like naming dozens of tracks every time I start up the DAW, makes it a more creative experience."

You know you can get Kontakt instruments that already have a whole orchestra in them, right? You don't need to build one instrument by instrument. That's just crazy.

Your friend just like having two cars, why is that a problem?

It's an obscene indulgence that costs the planet plenty.

So having two vehicles isn't a dumb thing at all.

It most assuredly is. If you're concerned about fuel consumption, for example, how do you save enough to justify paying registration and insurance twice? Or double the servicing costs?