If you had to stick to one DAW, which one would it be?

[magog]

Yeah, I don't get that feeling at all here. In fact in terms of specific tools I would choose DP over Logic that way. I bought the FCP Logic educational bundle a couple years ago so I keep it around for older songs I did in Logic, but I really really hate what they did to the tool pallet, it's this little dance of commands now, easier to just mouse the pallet, when before it was single letters, like it is in DP.
There really isn't a part of DP that can't be controlled by a keyboard shortcut, we might literally be talking about the only area where DP has you grab a mouse, but IMO selecting things in the arrangement is something you do to edit data, that will require the mouse over a key command anyway.

Yeah, everybody works differently, hence this thread Personally, if I can't navigate around the work area of an application without a mouse, I feel like I have my hands tied behind my back.

If I could design a DAW, I would make a robust keyboard model based on Vim (for its modes) and Emacs (for its filter-select-act paradigm).

(I would also put timestamps on every object so you can visually see what changes you did when, and allow diffs and merges so we could eventually have a github for songs. But I digress.)

I am well aware that I am not your standard DAW user because I seem to be the only one interested in all the features I request. I was considering learning C++ so I could hack on Ardour, and the first thing I would add would be robust keyboard based selection of regions

Fortunately for the world, I'm spending my spare time making music and reading KVR instead.

Actually, I'm looking in 10.13 Commands window and I still can't find it. What is it called?

Dunno, but the one thing I wish DP did was allow you to reverse search a command, as of now what you do is find an empty command and punch in the command you're trying to reverse search, so punching in Shift Alt, then the up/down arrow into that blank command space will trigger a dialog box telling you it's used by xxx, then you have the name.
What I wish all DAWs did was give you a list of commands that aren't being used, so you wouldn't have to search for an unused command like a cro mag.

Yeah that would be nice. I appreciate you having a look for me!

[magog]

You're assuming all his IMO again this is the slowest way to do this. It's much easier if you're really familiar with the way quantization works in your DAW to play in the MIDI, then quantize it, repair what the quantize misses.

But I'm not in a hurry. As I said, I like to give myself time to ruminate on it as I work

I find this very interesting.

I think what most people are seeking while working on music is a flow state - we want to get into the act of creation without the software getting in the way.

It seems like your "zone" is just slow and steady.

For me, I achieve flow-state by customizing and optimizing my creative environments (DAW, text editor, OS, etc.) so that when it is time to create, I can create as fast as I can think. Or that's the goal, anyway. The software disappears and becomes an extension of my hands.

I think everybody is sensitive to different kinds of software distractions. Some people cannot tolerate bugs and crashes for instance. It breaks flow. I'll accept the odd bug and crash now and then as long as I don't catastrophically lose work. But I have a low tolerance for certain kinds of usability issues - things that interfere with me getting an idea onto the canvas. Things that break my flow.

I can't find the quote, but I think Kurt Vonnegut once said there are two kinds of writers. There are writers who just type slowly in a linear fashion slowly and patiently until they're finished, pausing over each word, making few mistakes. And there are writers who rapidly spit out a great quantity of words and then revise and rearrange until they're happy. I'm the latter.

[machinesworking]

You're assuming all his ideas come from the fast inspiration method

I'm not assuming anything. I have been working with the guy for 25 years, I know his process as well as I know my own.

Then why would you assume all his songs come quickly? I mean they might, but like I mentioned already, not everyone does the 24 hour song thing every time they're inspired.

I've always got a cache of at least a dozen songs without a break or chorus I like yet, it's pretty typical.

I've had one of those since about 2000 but I don't think I have ever used anything that's ended up there, so I stopped adding to it ages ago. I find a thing usually works or it doesn't and if it needs so much time to make it work, it always turns out not to have been worth the effort.

I had a songwriting partner in my post punk noise band in the 90's who always came up with pretty much everything on the spot. I would bring things to the group, in the end I wrote more songs than he did to the point that he quit. I liked his songs, but mine were definitely more universally liked by the other members of the band.
There are two typical ways songs come to people, they either hear the whole thing at once, or take a while to come up with the other parts of a decent verse or chorus. For you only one method works, and I would guess that's why the other songwriter is the one who comes up with the bones of the song, and you hear a finished product etc.

You admitted already you mostly let him come up with the guts of the song, you help him flesh it out.

Most of the time but I do also write songs on my own.

One of the reasons songwriting teams work is because it's easier to hear what would make a great break or chorus etc. in something you didn't start.

With us I think it's more a difference in approach. He doesn't even think about choruses and verses most of the time. He writes much more linearly, like dance music, whereas I think in terms of rock songs - intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, break, chorus, chorus, outro - or some variation on that formula.

Yep that's a typical good formula, it's just a chore to find someone who finishes the song in a way you like. I remember one song a band of mine did got named the argument song before it got a title because the bass player had a weak break he refused to give up on, added nothing to the song.

But I'm not in a hurry. As I said, I like to give myself time to ruminate on it as I work and most of the time I don't even have a keyboard set up, it's just the laptop and mouse. I only bother with a keyboard when I'm rehearsing for a gig. In production I don't really need it.

So you're not even playing in the part then? that's not what you said in the beginning, that you pencil it in even if you came up with the part by playing it.

I meant you're arguing you only need three chords to play, it's a punk rock approach.

That's EXACTLY what it is, what has always been my inspiration. That's why we like to call what we do Cyberpunk. I think it was Robert Fripp who once said that there were only two ways to do something really new and unique - you either had to be better than everyone else who has gone before you or so completely clueless that you weren't constricted by any of the norms of musical composition. The latter always seemed like less work to me, so I went with it.

Fripp of course works the exact opposite, that guy probably has never played a note he didn't intend to play. Somehow he makes that work.

Because most people would actually try using a feature that saves time before discrediting it.

Again, saving time is not important to me. Doing a better job matters so I'll look for things that will facilitate that but time-saving simply doesn't matter. Like I said, even when I can think of faster ways of doing something, I'll usually pick the slower way. e.g. If I look at features I've discovered in S1 over the last few months, the only ones I've incorporated are using "G" to glue clips together (don't know any other way of doing it) and the wide mixer, because it gives me more room for the arrangement window without hiding anything away.

This is where your age shows, you can't teach an old dog new tricks is an adage that works here.

Except that in the last 3 or 4 years I have taught myself how to use Bitwig, Cubase and Studio One. I've also taught myself how to use Blender for 3D modelling and animation, after more than 20 years as a 3DS Max guy, and by the end of this year I want to be proficient in DaVinci Resolve, too. That's probably more "new tricks" than I learned in the prior decade.

OK I get it then, you can definitely burn out on learning new things, and sounds like you might have already. You're talking to someone whose been paid more for teaching audio software than I've made off of my music in the last ten years or so. It's just a different mindset, I mostly do everything without touching the mouse.

Welcome to my world. I think being a bit OCD makes me much better at production - a place for everything and everything in it's place. Check once, check twice, then check again.

Made me think of my old vocalist, that was a line of hers in a song, I think the original statement is from Shakespeare, not sure? Might be more from her Christian upbringing.

Most people probably have their computer keyboard where they can reach it. In my work, it's usually behind a giant Wacom tablet and not at all convenient and if I'm rehearsing, it's behind the MIDI controller I've got set up. The mouse is almost always easier for me.

for sure, I'm dogging on you a bit but there's legit reasons to take different approaches, like I said PacMan Bones, I'm the Defender guy.

DP changes record enabled tracks without changing track selection, so just the other day I found out Shift,Alt, and up/down arrow keys change track selection.

S1 is the same so I just click the track I want to record to. My right hand is pretty much always on the mouse so it just feels easier.

To your credit that wouldn't be in the manual, but the point was know the interface for your DAW. Just spending 5 minutes attempting various commands to see if I could decipher which selected tracks is going to save me a lot of hassle.

That's pretty much how I work things out. If I think it makes sense that a certain thing should be possible, I'll try various key combos until I stumble upon the correct one. e.g. I thought it should be possible to select just a particular note in the PR, so I clicked, then Shift-clicked, then Alt-clicked and finally Ctrl-clicked and it worked. Very useful when in drum editor mode.

That's the thing, knowing the right key commands that do the things you want is super useful, there's only so much you get from mousing. Everything should be addressable by the mouse, and a keyboard shortcut if you want, otherwise it cuts out individual needs.

I bought Official Version in 1987 and La Folie in the same day. Great records by those groups.

I bought La Folie the week it came out in 1981. Sadly, a bridge too far for me where The Stranglers are concerned. I'm very much a No More Heroes/Black & White kinda fan.

Days and Nights and Blood, Man They Love to Hate and Nice and Sleazy are probably my favorite songs by the Stranglers, but I like pretty much something off all their earlier records.

It's not surprising to me that you weren't really into first wave Industrial

I had quite a bit of it - 23 Skidoo, Test Dept, SPK, Chrome, early Cabs. I used to buy a lot of records based on the band name or the album title or the artwork but none of that stuff ever quite worked for me. I'd heard TG before I'd ever had a chance to buy it and I didn't like it at all. Of all of it, I think Test Dept's The Unacceptable Face of Freedom is the only album I liked and it is something I still put on occasionally today. Not big on Neubauten, either, or Laibach. All my mates loved The Residents, I thought they were stupid. Never understood why anyone like Kraftwerk, either. It's just boring.

I couldn't agree with you less.
I'm not a big fan of MC5 but they're a pivotal group in the progress of music, my own interest in their songs pales in comparison to what they brought into being later by inspiring other musicians.
Sorry but IMO anyone who needs to voice a derisive opinion about certain completely original groups gets a big fat clueless stamp, it shows a lack of appreciation for the groups that brought new ways of doing things into light. TG, Kraftwerk, the Ramones, Black Sabbath, those groups introduced entire genres. Front 242 and Nitzer Ebb as we know them would not exist without TG and Cabarete Voltaire, or Kraftwerk there's no denying that, they would definitely agree. I don't have to like the Ramones to appreciate what they brought to music. TG defined the attitude of Industrial as a whole The transgressive intensity of it. Cabaret Voltaire musically, but attitude wise they might as well have been a progressive or Indie band, or what we called college rock back then.

BTW 23 Skiddoo and Test Department would be 2nd wave IMO. Chrome had a few good songs, Armageddon was solid. My band Systems Collapse in the 80's opened for the guitar players solo band (Helios Creed) a few times, nearly broke his jaw by accident once.

No, I'm talking about the massive f**k-around of taking a project from one to another. You either have to render out stems or export a MIDI file and save off presets for all the instruments and effects so you can spend hours rebuilding it in the other host. I just can't see how that can possibly be worth the hassle just for a few extra mixing tools or whatever.

Rendering out stems I will do to mix and master the song in another DAW. That's not difficult or hard. It's very very rare I've ever taken a song and ported it by exporting the MIDI and instruments etc. that's entirely too much hassle, I agree.

I still go back to DP for mixing and mastering though, the older style DAWs just have a better take on that, too limited most of the time in Live.

But how much of a f**k around is that? Surely Live can't be that bad for mixing? it's got a mixer, what more do you need?

Depends on the song, if it's 16-20 tracks I keep it in Live, if it gets to be more than that I hate navigating the mixer in Live, it's really not that hard to render stems end to end and import them.

The approach's of DP and Live are so different that for me it facilitates a different approach.

To me that just says that neither are worth using. If it's a Digital Audio Workstation, then it should meet all of your Digital Audio needs. Otherwise, what's the point?

You're not doing the same kind of things with DAWs that I do, writing EBM is possible in all of them, it's not that complicated, if it has a mixer you're good. Writing film score music with full orchestras, that's a different story.

You know you can get Kontakt instruments that already have a whole orchestra in them, right? You don't need to build one instrument by instrument. That's just crazy.

Do you think of your comebacks or do you think "this sounds edgy BAM! "
Say you have a few instance of Kontakt loaded with 16 instruments for the 16 MIDI tracks, so 64 parts, that's a pretty typical orchestral lay out. I have templates and track presets to do that in one go, open template with 128 tracks of East West Symphonic Orchestra loaded, all named, so instead of like you would be, looking at 64 MIDI tracks with generic "Kontakt A channel 12", names my templates and track presets (clippings in DP) are named with the actual instrument name, oboe, clarinet, solo trumpet, 6 trumpet section, etc. etc.

Your friend just like having two cars, why is that a problem?

It's an obscene indulgence that costs the planet plenty.

So having two vehicles isn't a dumb thing at all.

It most assuredly is. If you're concerned about fuel consumption, for example, how do you save enough to justify paying registration and insurance twice? Or double the servicing costs?

[/quote] Again did you read what I wrote? a truck is always a gas guzzler, there's no way around it, so there's some trade off I suppose in terms of the creation of the car in the first place, but if you buy a car and truck that last, driving the car when you can is going to tada! save gas.

Realistically until we stop being dependent on oil we're all complicit in terms of vehicles. The fact that infrastructure got built up around single driver vehicles is an ugly testament to waste. There should be world wide, super fast super efficient public transportation that fills in every gap so that all that is really on the roads are delivery vans locally and service people. I don't know how it is in Aus really, but I imagine it's just as ridiculous as it is here with people equating "freedom" to vehicle ownership. Personally I didn't start owning trucks until I had to in my early 30's. Vehicles are a huge polluting money suck.

Thing is though you're friend can't drive both cars at the same time, so beyond the fuel cost of the creation of the vehicle it's not as wasteful as you make it out, unless he bought new. I've never done that, that's just a money pit.

[machinesworking]

Yeah, everybody works differently, hence this thread Personally, if I can't navigate around the work area of an application without a mouse, I feel like I have my hands tied behind my back.

No I hear you. I love Live, but for years they had no command for full screen piano roll, you had to manually drag the subwindow to full screen, then back down etc. Their UX was all about the experience when you first approached it, only two windows, tab switches between them, everything WYSIWYG. They've recently fixed all that, but it always bothered me, the best time stretch implementation in terms of experimenting with mangling audio, but some of the most dumbed down UX ideas, and few key commands.

If I could design a DAW, I would make a robust keyboard model based on Vim (for its modes) and Emacs (for its filter-select-act paradigm).

(I would also put timestamps on every object so you can visually see what changes you did when, and allow diffs and merges so we could eventually have a github for songs. But I digress.)

I am well aware that I am not your standard DAW user because I seem to be the only one interested in all the features I request. I was considering learning C++ so I could hack on Ardour, and the first thing I would add would be robust keyboard based selection of regions

Personally it would start with DP, (articulation maps, Chunks, MPE setup, general MIDI setup, selection tools, movie scoring tools), then a more advanced setup for commands than any DAW out there, a list of what is used, not used. ways of sorting them that make sense. Basically a spread sheet approach to them. Some of the UX ideas of Bitwig, with the Grid, sandboxed plug ins, Lives Session View, Jitter, M4L, Reapers rendering and Spectral editing, Logics included instruments, plug in manager, drummer, track stacks and comp variations, Lives Audio and MIDI routing, Bitwigs modulation routing and controller setup. Cubase Studio environment, Studio One's mastering, and Pro tools audio editing.

But honestly I can find flaws in anything so..

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

[quote=TribeOfHǫfuð post_id=8349534 time=1644386836
And if you listen to this, you might think I am actually singing (Dog forbid!).

I basically find it cool and exciting. Sometimes Novakill hits my spots better than the classics. A pity EBM drowned in so much nonsense dance stuff in the 90s. At best, bringing it into future pop, but still marginalized like hell. A wider global audience and you’d could…no, should have been big. You deserve it for the energy, engagement and corresponding results.

Whatever quarrels people have with you, I consider your music authentic, not imitated, not consumerized, but yours from heart and lifelong devotion. I’d respect it even if I did not like it, but I do, man. Good work. Keep it up

[Karlatin]

Today I Learned that MuLab has 3.5 times the market share of Pro Tools.

[BONES]

I think what most people are seeking while working on music is a flow state - we want to get into the act of creation without the software getting in the way.

I think some of you think way too much about all this useless, unimportant shit. The only thing I am thinking about while I work is the music, the tools don't get in the way because I know how they work, so everything is anticipated. e.g. I know that when I open the GUI for Union that it will take 4 or 5 seconds to initiate so it never bothers me. I reckon for every hour I spend working on a piece, I probably spend 45 minutes just listening to it anyway, so if the rest of it takes 10 minutes or 20, it's not significant. It's certainly not worth worrying about or trying to improve upon. For me it simply is what it is. I pretty much never get annoyed or frustrated when I work because things pretty much always go the way I expect.

Then why would you assume all his songs come quickly?

As I said, it's not an assumption, it's direct observation over 25 years of collaboration. He doesn't sit at home and do his thing while I sit at my place and do my thing, we get together every week. So each of us understands the other's process very, very well.

I had a songwriting partner in my post punk noise band in the 90's who always came up with pretty much everything on the spot. I would bring things to the group, in the end I wrote more songs than he did to the point that he quit. I liked his songs, but mine were definitely more universally liked by the other members of the band.

That's not a problem we will ever have, we're too much on the same page and anything he comes up with that I don't want to work on, he'll use for one of his side projects. In fact, most of the time I am extremely polite about asking if it's OK for me to work on his ideas. I never want to presume. Similarly, I always let him have at my songs because I don't want anything on our albums not to have had input from both of us. If you listen to ROAD on our last album, for example, which is one of mine, he added a little piece that led me to completely re-do the middle of the song, which improved it out of sight. I don't know how long it took him to do it, although I sent him the song one night and he gave it back to me the next day with the additions so it can't have taken too long.

I remember one song a band of mine did got named the argument song before it got a title because the bass player had a weak break he refused to give up on, added nothing to the song.

That's another thing that's never a problem for us. We're not precious about anything. He might say something isn't working and even though I think it's fine, I'll still take his critique on board and play around with it. Sometimes it gets better, other times it doesn't but I think we each have sufficient respect for the other that we take their opinion seriously. And it's enough to say "that bit is annoying, can we drop it, please?" The fact one of us asked is enough for the other to agree.

So you're not even playing in the part then? that's not what you said in the beginning, that you pencil it in even if you came up with the part by playing it.

Which is why I don't write many songs. The opportunity mostly doesn't arise. For the last album, I did some writing because we'd put ourselves on a schedule and I wanted to pull my weight but after last night's meeting, we already have enough ideas for the next album, so this time around I probably won't have to bother. Yay!

Fripp of course works the exact opposite, that guy probably has never played a note he didn't intend to play. Somehow he makes that work.

Like I said, too much work for me.

Because most people would actually try using a feature that saves time before discrediting it.

Again, saving time is not important to me. Doing a better job matters so I'll look for things that will facilitate that but time-saving simply doesn't matter. Like I said, even when I can think of faster ways of doing something, I'll usually pick the slower way. e.g. If I look at features I've discovered in S1 over the last few months, the only ones I've incorporated are using "G" to glue clips together (don't know any other way of doing it) and the wide mixer, because it gives me more room for the arrangement window without hiding anything away.

You're talking to someone whose been paid more for teaching audio software than I've made off of my music in the last ten years or so.

I'm was a bit the same with work. I spent 6 years as a product specialist for the company that made the software I used to work with. Kind of like Joe or Gregor for Studio One, only in a different age when we used to fly around the world to show people in person.

I'm dogging on you a bit but there's legit reasons to take different approaches, like I said PacMan Bones, I'm the Defender guy.

It's probably more that I'm a left-hander who mouses with his right hand, so my dominant hand is always free, whereas for right-handers it's natural to let go of the mouse to do other things.

I like pretty much something off all their earlier records.

They last few have been pretty good. I'd rate Suite XVI at about the same level as The Raven, possibly even higher. Giants, not so much and the new one is a bit patchy but has a few good songs.

Sorry but IMO anyone who needs to voice a derisive opinion about certain completely original groups gets a big fat clueless stamp, it shows a lack of appreciation for the groups that brought new ways of doing things into light.

I think that is a big difference between you and I - I have absolutely no interest in ways of doing things, only in the results. Something does it for me when I hear it or it doesn't. How they did it is of less than no interest to me.

TG, Kraftwerk, the Ramones, Black Sabbath, those groups introduced entire genres. Front 242 and Nitzer Ebb as we know them would not exist without TG and Cabarete Voltaire, or Kraftwerk there's no denying that, they would definitely agree.

A lot of them would also say they like Bowie, doesn't mean I have to (and I do not).

Rendering out stems I will do to mix and master the song in another DAW. That's not difficult or hard.

Until you want to change something in one of the stems. When I was mastering our EP last week, I must have re-rendered a couple of the songs at least half-a-dozen times because it was much easier than pushing the master to compensate for things I needed to fix. When you've rendered stems, you make that more difficult and maybe end up compromising, don't you think?

Say you have a few instance of Kontakt loaded with 16 instruments for the 16 MIDI tracks, so 64 parts, that's a pretty typical orchestral lay out.

Wait on, what's a symphony orchestra, 80-odd players? Why would you need 64 parts. You'd need one or two for each section and maybe a solo or two, perhaps 12-15 tracks, all up. Piece of cake.

Realistically until we stop being dependent on oil we're all complicit in terms of vehicles.

I'm not. I could drive a giant V12 for the rest of my days and my carbon footprint will still be smaller than yours or most other people's, because my car is far and away my biggest carbon source, whereas for most people it is probably not in their top 3. A child or a pet dog, for example, are much worse for the environment than a car.

The fact that infrastructure got built up around single driver vehicles is an ugly testament to waste.

Well, it didn't really, that's just the way people decided to use them. But most cars still come with enough seats for 5 people, people simply choose not to use them like that.

I don't know how it is in Aus really, but I imagine it's just as ridiculous as it is here with people equating "freedom" to vehicle ownership.

I certainly do. I'd give up all my music making gear before I'd give up my car, that's for sure. I'd give up recording and performing before Id 'give up driving, too.

Thing is though you're friend can't drive both cars at the same time, so beyond the fuel cost of the creation of the vehicle it's not as wasteful as you make it out, unless he bought new.

Of course he bought new, so do I. No point in having last decade's tech.

[machinesworking]

So you're not even playing in the part then? that's not what you said in the beginning, that you pencil it in even if you came up with the part by playing it.

Which is why I don't write many songs. The opportunity mostly doesn't arise. For the last album, I did some writing because we'd put ourselves on a schedule and I wanted to pull my weight but after last night's meeting, we already have enough ideas for the next album, so this time around I probably won't have to bother. Yay!

Funny how different we all are, my absolute favorite part of the music writing process is the coming up initially with a verse and chorus. Followed by the completed product.

Fripp of course works the exact opposite, that guy probably has never played a note he didn't intend to play. Somehow he makes that work.

Like I said, too much work for me.

I sit somewhere between you two, I've spent most of my career in your camp, but I've enjoyed learning the guts of music lately.

You're talking to someone whose been paid more for teaching audio software than I've made off of my music in the last ten years or so.

I'm was a bit the same with work. I spent 6 years as a product specialist for the company that made the software I used to work with. Kind of like Joe or Gregor for Studio One, only in a different age when we used to fly around the world to show people in person.

Yeah it's funny a next gig will be teaching a guy Keyboard Maestro, a macro program for Mac I don't even own yet, most musicians are so right brained (I'm being polite there), they can't do anything without a helping hand.

I'm dogging on you a bit but there's legit reasons to take different approaches, like I said PacMan Bones, I'm the Defender guy.

It's probably more that I'm a left-hander who mouses with his right hand, so my dominant hand is always free, whereas for right-handers it's natural to let go of the mouse to do other things.

You might be on to something there, there's also just plain preference. You prefer mousing, no explanation needed. I'm just into speed in terms of setup, the faster it's done the quicker I can knock out new parts. In terms of arrangement and mixing mastering etc, yeah it's not as important to me either.

I like pretty much something off all their earlier records.

They last few have been pretty good. I'd rate Suite XVI at about the same level as The Raven, possibly even higher. Giants, not so much and the new one is a bit patchy but has a few good songs.

I'll check them out, I'm definitely a person that thinks groups have periods, so I tend to not listen to later records by groups if I hear one that sounds like they're punching a clock.

I think that is a big difference between you and I - I have absolutely no interest in ways of doing things, only in the results. Something does it for me when I hear it or it doesn't. How they did it is of less than no interest to me.

Yeah it has nothing to do with that. There are parts of Kraftwerk that ended up being absolutely critical in Nitzer Ebbs sound. The whole mechanical lack of interest in blues riffs, the Wagnerian feel, and the references to funk and R&B in what Kraftwerk did is a direct line to what EBM became.
Like I said, I don't listen to MC5, but their brutality along with Blue Cheer etc. is directly responsible for punk. I could never dismiss them as boring, just not my cup of tea.

TG, Kraftwerk, the Ramones, Black Sabbath, those groups introduced entire genres. Front 242 and Nitzer Ebb as we know them would not exist without TG and Cabarete Voltaire, or Kraftwerk there's no denying that, they would definitely agree.

A lot of them would also say they like Bowie, doesn't mean I have to (and I do not).

Again there's a big difference between liking a group and respecting what they brought. Bowie had his period for me where he was trying to copy Kraut Rock with Eno, his later career was pretty boring. But I would say his own weird behavior and attitude was responsible for a lot of great bands, most post punk bands were influenced by him.

Rendering out stems I will do to mix and master the song in another DAW. That's not difficult or hard.

Until you want to change something in one of the stems. When I was mastering our EP last week, I must have re-rendered a couple of the songs at least half-a-dozen times because it was much easier than pushing the master to compensate for things I needed to fix. When you've rendered stems, you make that more difficult and maybe end up compromising, don't you think?

Only if you don't feel finished when you render. Plus if there ever was a need to re-render a part I wanted to change, it's not like the song in Live just disappears and it literally only takes minutes to render. Like you said, it's not a race against a clock. Definitely not during mix down.

Say you have a few instance of Kontakt loaded with 16 instruments for the 16 MIDI tracks, so 64 parts, that's a pretty typical orchestral lay out.

Wait on, what's a symphony orchestra, 80-odd players? Why would you need 64 parts. You'd need one or two for each section and maybe a solo or two, perhaps 12-15 tracks, all up. Piece of cake.

I give up trying to explain it to you, EWSO is 128 parts, having it all right there is extremely useful, it's not the type of thing you have to do more than once, and it lasts for years, until you get bored with the library or replace it etc. Instead of futzing around waiting for samples to load in Kontakt or Play etc. to audition the various parts, they're just right there.

Realistically until we stop being dependent on oil we're all complicit in terms of vehicles.

I'm not. I could drive a giant V12 for the rest of my days and my carbon footprint will still be smaller than yours or most other people's, because my car is far and away my biggest carbon source, whereas for most people it is probably not in their top 3. A child or a pet dog, for example, are much worse for the environment than a car.

A dog is far far less damaging than a car. A child you're right about. Overpopulation is the number one issue.

The fact that infrastructure got built up around single driver vehicles is an ugly testament to waste.

Well, it didn't really, that's just the way people decided to use them. But most cars still come with enough seats for 5 people, people simply choose not to use them like that.

Yep, people decided, because they're greedy wasteful things.

I don't know how it is in Aus really, but I imagine it's just as ridiculous as it is here with people equating "freedom" to vehicle ownership.

I certainly do. I'd give up all my music making gear before I'd give up my car, that's for sure. I'd give up recording and performing before Id 'give up driving, too.

So you admit being part of the problem, good that's the first step.

Thing is though you're friend can't drive both cars at the same time, so beyond the fuel cost of the creation of the vehicle it's not as wasteful as you make it out, unless he bought new.

Of course he bought new, so do I. No point in having last decade's tech.

I drive a 95 Tacoma, 240K on it, and still running strong. Unless the car is running badly I see it as an unnecessary waste of resources.

[BONES]

Funny how different we all are, my absolute favorite part of the music writing process is the coming up initially with a verse and chorus. Followed by the completed product.

I mostly just want to have something to play on stage, or something that will create an opportunity for us to perform.

I'll check them out, I'm definitely a person that thinks groups have periods, so I tend to not listen to later records by groups if I hear one that sounds like they're punching a clock.

Yeah, I'm the same but I think with The Stranglers, it's more about them exploring different styles that don't appeal to me as much which, of course, is a good thing because it shows they are still comfortable to push their boundaries, even in their 70s.

Yeah it has nothing to do with that. There are parts of Kraftwerk that ended up being absolutely critical in Nitzer Ebbs sound. The whole mechanical lack of interest in blues riffs, the Wagnerian feel, and the references to funk and R&B in what Kraftwerk did is a direct line to what EBM became.

I look at most of that kind of thing as inevitable, though, initiated by the Punk ethos of throwing out the rule book. My own experience is a great example - making EBM virtually in a vacuum. Have a look at where Townsville is in Queensland and you'll see just how much of a vacuum I was working in. e.g. I was already using dialogue cut-ups in my music before I ever heard Skinny Puppy. I'd picked up the idea from Modern English's first album in 1981 -



I flew to the US in 2016 to see these guys do this album live. I saw three gigs and hung out with them most of the time. It was the best holiday of my life!

Like I said, I don't listen to MC5, but their brutality along with Blue Cheer etc. is directly responsible for punk. I could never dismiss them as boring, just not my cup of tea.

They're not boring because they have energy. Kratfwerk's music has no energy.

TG, Kraftwerk, the Ramones, Black Sabbath, those groups introduced entire genres. Front 242 and Nitzer Ebb as we know them would not exist without TG and Cabarete Voltaire, or Kraftwerk there's no denying that, they would definitely agree.

A lot of them would also say they like Bowie, doesn't mean I have to (and I do not).

Again there's a big difference between liking a group and respecting what they brought. Bowie had his period for me where he was trying to copy Kraut Rock with Eno, his later career was pretty boring. But I would say his own weird behavior and attitude was responsible for a lot of great bands, most post punk bands were influenced by him.

Only if you don't feel finished when you render. Plus if there ever was a need to re-render a part I wanted to change, it's not like the song in Live just disappears and it literally only takes minutes to render.

Yeah, I was thinking last night that it might actually have advantages, if the application you're mastering in automatically updates the files, the way Adobe CC apps do. e.g. If I'm using an image in After Effects and I edit it in Photoshop. After Effects can see that it's been edited and updates it automatically. Orion was good at this, too, which made it really easy to work with audio.

Overpopulation is the number one issue.

Correct.

Yep, people decided, because they're greedy wasteful things.

Also correct.

So you admit being part of the problem, good that's the first step.

John Scalzi had a good idea in one of his novellas, Everything But The Squeal, where every person worked for a carbon allowance, which they could spend on whatever they chose to. So you could have a car or a child but having both was prohibitively expensive for most people. I'd like t live in that world because, as I said, I'm confident my carbon footprint is a tiny fraction of most people's so I could probably afford a Lotus in that world.

I drive a 95 Tacoma, 240K on it, and still running strong. Unless the car is running badly I see it as an unnecessary waste of resources.

Whereas I see it as a mobile roadblock that really needs to get out of my way, NOW! but just imagine how much kinder to the environment a 95 Corolla would be?

[machinesworking]

I mostly just want to have something to play on stage, or something that will create an opportunity for us to perform.

I like performing, but my favorite part is definitely finishing a song I personally think is great. Admittedly when a performance goes exactly as planned, that's pretty great too.

Yeah, I'm the same but I think with The Stranglers, it's more about them exploring different styles that don't appeal to me as much which, of course, is a good thing because it shows they are still comfortable to push their boundaries, even in their 70s.

Sure, but IMO there's periods in bands lives when everything is working, and periods where it's just, not. Sometimes pushing their boundaries translates to "the theme is played out and we're desperate."

Yeah it has nothing to do with that. There are parts of Kraftwerk that ended up being absolutely critical in Nitzer Ebbs sound. The whole mechanical lack of interest in blues riffs, the Wagnerian feel, and the references to funk and R&B in what Kraftwerk did is a direct line to what EBM became.

I look at most of that kind of thing as inevitable, though, initiated by the Punk ethos of throwing out the rule book. My own experience is a great example - making EBM virtually in a vacuum. Have a look at where Townsville is in Queensland and you'll see just how much of a vacuum I was working in. e.g. I was already using dialogue cut-ups in my music before I ever heard Skinny Puppy. I'd picked up the idea from Modern English's first album in 1981 -

In terms of dialogue cutups, TG and Cabs were doing that in the 70's, nobody was stripping songs down as minimally as Kraftwerk were, or doing things with only electronic instruments, or affecting a cold robotic approach. You can find them boring, but it's very very much a unique approach, they influenced pretty much every electronic band you like.

I flew to the US in 2016 to see these guys do this album live. I saw three gigs and hung out with them most of the time. It was the best holiday of my life!

That's cool I love it when musicians are decent to people who love their music, and that's mostly been my experience. Weirdly enough the most standoffish elitist artists I've met are underground cartoonists. I met Robert Williams and he was pretty stand offish, like you would expect out of some rock star.

Like I said, I don't listen to MC5, but their brutality along with Blue Cheer etc. is directly responsible for punk. I could never dismiss them as boring, just not my cup of tea.

They're not boring because they have energy. Kratfwerk's music has no energy.

They are not a rock band, that's for sure, it's stripped down R&B pop, every OG Hip Hop artist cited them as a big influence because of that. It's not your cup of tea, that's all. Their aesthetic choices have affected music massively.
It's a bit like Blue Cheer, they really didn't have a lot of output, but the loud heavy distorted reputation they had affected music heavily. People were impressed by the audacity of it.

Yeah, I was thinking last night that it might actually have advantages, if the application you're mastering in automatically updates the files, the way Adobe CC apps do. e.g. If I'm using an image in After Effects and I edit it in Photoshop. After Effects can see that it's been edited and updates it automatically. Orion was good at this, too, which made it really easy to work with audio.

Cool idea, OK now I'm going to have to test this.

John Scalzi had a good idea in one of his novellas, Everything But The Squeal, where every person worked for a carbon allowance, which they could spend on whatever they chose to. So you could have a car or a child but having both was prohibitively expensive for most people. I'd like t live in that world because, as I said, I'm confident my carbon footprint is a tiny fraction of most people's so I could probably afford a Lotus in that world.

OK now I get where your mind was going there. Personally when the time for children was there, I realized I would probably resent all the time they take, and IMO being a shitty or neglectful parent is one of the reasons this world is a mess. Plus there are enough people.

I drive a 95 Tacoma, 240K on it, and still running strong. Unless the car is running badly I see it as an unnecessary waste of resources.

Whereas I see it as a mobile roadblock that really needs to get out of my way, NOW! but just imagine how much kinder to the environment a 95 Corolla would be?

Sure, but 80% of my income is construction, painting, and home repair. My first vehicle was a truck, I don't drive trucks for show like most people do. At least I'm not that ass with an F250 that gets 10mpg when they don't need it because they have masculinity issues.

[BONES]

Sadly, Australia has been following in America's footsteps. 3 or 4 years ago the Toyota Hilux topped annual sales for the first time, toppling Corolla, which had been the top seller for several years before that, after dethroning the full-size Commodore (which was sold in the US as a Pontiac G8 and later as a Chevrolet SS). Now the whole Top 10 probably only contains one car, everything else is a pick-up or an SUV.

[SparkySpark]

Today I Learned that MuLab has 3.5 times the market share of Pro Tools.

And for good reason.

[machinesworking]

Sadly, Australia has been following in America's footsteps. 3 or 4 years ago the Toyota Hilux topped annual sales for the first time, toppling Corolla, which had been the top seller for several years before that, after dethroning the full-size Commodore (which was sold in the US as a Pontiac G8 and later as a Chevrolet SS). Now the whole Top 10 probably only contains one car, everything else is a pick-up or an SUV.

As someone whose worked in construction most of their lives, I really hate that people buy big gas guzzling truck and SUVs then absolutely never use them for what they're made for. It's a waste on a couple levels, gas is obvious, but trucks and SUVs are tooled for power, not longevity, so most of them die at 150,000 miles or roughly 240,000km. It's ridiculous, one of the shortest guys I worked with drove an F250 long bed, and never used it for hauling anything, because it was his baby. Such obvious short mans complex I think can't be beat.

[mementus]

I love Cubase. It is so easy to use. <3
edit: and, most importantly, it's plenty of YouTube tutorials!

[sQeetz]

Facebook was easy. Reddit too. I'm leaving Twitter because it's hard to get into any discussions there (so I don't) and I like it for news & links for stuff to read/watch

I barely touch Facebook, but if I was to delete my account, I would have the repercussion of all the aunts and cousins asking why(*)... so i simply just leave it to visiting it once every couple of weeks/months
(*) I was raised in Brazil and moved with my parents as a kid to Germany... (My father worked at VW)

I'm just a Reddit lurker, just go in there from time to time when bored. Twitter never had anything that interested me.