Reason 3 is simply awesome.

[headquest]

Cool, then why don't they at least allow Reason to work as a Rewire host then? They've already done all the work on the protocol, to allow for this, so it wouldn't be a waste of development.

My gut reaction is that it would be a good idea John.

The main issue from the development point of view would be changing Reason's audio engine to accept incoming audio.

Bearing in mind that personally I would like to see them introduce an audio recording device into the rack in version 4 (a virtual tape machine) they could at the same time add in a Rewire host device with a simple link to launch the slave application, and enough audio outs to accommodate popular slave devices.

[headquest]

Reason was indeed described that way when version 1 was launched back in 2000. Since then of course a lot has changed in the Music Technology scene, including the terminology that people use. Back in 2000 I believe that Cubase was not yet SX, Sonar was still Cakewalk Pro Audio, Ableton Live and Tracktion had not yet appeared, the VST revolution was in its infancy, and there were no other modular hosts or VST emulations of modular synths. In that context, Reason was a pretty radical product when it was launched.

If I remember correctly all of those apps that you mentioned had the ability to record audio, use audio tracks and output MIDI back then, didn't they? How has that changed during the intervening years?

Out of the ones that existed, yes they did have those features. But at that time they didn't come bundled with the range of plugin instruments and effects that the better ones now have. Reason filled that gap.

[Hovmod]

I think this one hosts some crackin plugs, and it's got that matrix feeling as well!

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~nesson/sequencer.html

[Meffy]

Cool, then why don't they at least allow Reason to work as a Rewire host then? They've already done all the work on the protocol, to allow for this, so it wouldn't be a waste of development.

It's the other way 'round from what I'd most like to see, but that would work for me too. For that matter, the status quo works for me too. I wouldn't say "no" to any bidirectional-audio feature they might add, but I don't expect to see 'em.

[Teksonik]

Yes but other Hosts can be considered "Instruments" as well. Orion= Toxic 2,WaveDream,Ultran,Screamer,Sampler with multi format support,Plucked String,Bassline,3 Drum machines, A realtime Impulse Resonse Processor, great effects too numerous to mention AND it can host other Plugins, AND it can record audio AND it's less expensive than Reason. The Reason is an Instrument argument just doesn't hold water.

It does hold water, because it claims to be an instrument on the box and in adverts, and it is in fact an instrument. How is that a problem

As for the wonderful ONION it is a host that includes a range of bundled instruments/effects. As such it sets out - and succeeds - in covering more bases. Although some people, including me, would say that it is not such a high quality product/end result. For me its the stability, efficient CPU and included samples that swing it very strongly in Reason's favour.

Indeed. You just don't or won't get it, Orion can also be used as an INSTRUMENT if that's your argument. An instrument which BECAUSE of it's open format can produce a far greater range of musical sounds than can Reason. Stability is no longer an issue and neither is cpu demand. Bottom line in my opinion Reason is an overpriced, underpowered piece of outdated software.

The statement that Rewire is more "Popular" than the vsti protocol is false.

[dogod]

I think this one hosts some crackin plugs, and it's got that matrix feeling as well!

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~nesson/sequencer.html

AWESOME

One the NZ's will definitely love

ps. (just 'cos everyone else's doin' it)

[headquest]

You just don't or won't get it, Orion can also be used as an INSTRUMENT if that's your argument.

I know, and I already stated that it covers more bases than Reason does. Read what I said again . Reason is a more specialised application.

An instrument which BECAUSE of it's open format can produce a far greater range of musical sounds than can Reason.

No. Reason contains three sample devices including the very powerful NN-XT. As such there are no limits on the sounds you can use, and third party support via Refills (soon to include the Miroslav Vitous orchestral set) is massive.

Stability is no longer an issue and neither is cpu demand.

Oh yes they are. Read the final page "Sounding off" in the latest Sound on Sound for a good illustration of this. The guy in that article was using a super-uber-computer and could only run one VST synth

Bottom line in my opinion Reason is an overpriced, underpowered piece of outdated software.

And in my opinion its not.

The statement that Rewire is more "Popular" than the vsti protocol is false.

In the five most established professional-grade hosts that I listed I already demonstrated that it is the only universal protocol.

[John Vulich]

My gut reaction is that it would be a good idea John.

The main issue from the development point of view would be changing Reason's audio engine to accept incoming audio.

Bearing in mind that personally I would like to see them introduce an audio recording device into the rack in version 4 (a virtual tape machine) they could at the same time add in a Rewire host device with a simple link to launch the slave application, and enough audio outs to accommodate popular slave devices.

So why then did you say earlier that...

Third party plugins would almost certainly blow that concept.

Certainly 2-way Rewire capabilities would allow synths with Rewire to be used as "third party plugins". Why would Rewire instruments be ok but not VST? I don't think that you're being very inconsistent with your statements here.

Like I said earlier, Reason already allows hosting of ReBirth. I have a feeling that it's probably through a limited Rewire connection that only allows for ReBirth to be used. Anyway, you still haven't answered my earlier question. How come hosting ReBirth doesn't "blow that concept"?

[Teksonik]

Define "Professional Grade". I guarantee more vst/vsti products are sold each year than Rewire products. That makes them more popular.

[headquest]

Certainly 2-way Rewire capabilities would allow synths with Rewire to be used as "third party plugins". Why would Rewire instruments be ok but not VST? I don't think that you're being very inconsistent with your statements here.

I think the difference is that a Rewire hosting module (similar to the ReBirth input machine, but on a larger scale) could integrate into the modular Reason rack allowing for flexible routings etc in a way that individual VSTs couldn't integrate. In that sense it would not blow the concept at all, but simply expand on what's there already. I think it would be an elegant solution that may well please users.

I hope that answers it better

[headquest]

Define "Professional Grade". I guarantee more vst/vsti products are sold each year than Rewire products. That makes them more popular.

I guarantee that you have no idea what you are talking about there. Unless you can support that claim with industry data?

As for professional grade, I included the five sequencers that have been around for 10 - 20 years, stood the test of time, and are widely used in professional studios (commercial and project) around the world.

In terms of other hosts, of course Ableton, FL, Orion, P5, Tracktion, etc all have Rewire too. I could have included the lot (and I'm sure that between them they sell very well indeed ).

[diverdee]

Reason doesn't really 'host' rebirth as such - it does allow audio to be streamed from rebirth to reason in sync - similar to the original rewire 1 protocol.
I believe that it is through hacking this capability that that petertools hammer thing works.
Personally I don't want to see reason hosting external vst/vsti, i'd rather keep the stability.
Anyway's it's a different format - the cv connections & all that, unless there was some kind of vst to props format wrapper - that would possibly be useful.
I like it the way it is (with the caveat that I believe some updates would be useful).
If I want external effects etc. I just rewire it to Ableton Live.
For me reason is a rack of devices I use for experimenting with & creating sound.
It aint really broke so......

[John Vulich]

The statement that Rewire is more "Popular" than the vsti protocol is false.

In the five most established professional-grade hosts that I listed I already demonstrated that it is the only universal protocol.

Once again you are reframing the question to suit your argument. How many Rewire, RTAS, DX and AU synths are there compared to VST? I think that you can better judge a specific protocol's popularity by how many plugins are developed for it. In this regard VST is certainly the most popular by a long shot. Meanwhile there are very few instruments that use Rewire as a way to integrate with hosts . Even if they do it is usually as an addition to a VST version anyway.

[dogod]

Check-mate to Johnnie

[John Vulich]

I think the difference is that a Rewire hosting module (similar to the ReBirth input machine, but on a larger scale) could integrate into the modular Reason rack allowing for flexible routings etc in a way that individual VSTs couldn't integrate. In that sense it would not blow the concept at all, but simply expand on what's there already. I think it would be an elegant solution that may well please users.

I hope that answers it better

Nope.

Please explain why this integration couldn't be accomplished with the VST protocol?

And just what is this "concept" that we are talking about blowing anyway?