Reason 3 is simply awesome.

[Teksonik]

One more response before I go. I can run several high end vsti's at the same time on my non "Uber" PIV 2.53 without a problem in real time-no bouncing no hicpups. I don't know what vsti the guy was trying to run on his Uber computer but me thinks he knows not what he's doing.

Ok I'm going to Starbucks to get some high octane coffee. I'm not trying to change the minds of people who already own Reason, it's too late for them but I would hate to see some newbie come along and read Reason is Awesome and buy it only to find he has handcuffed himself severely.

Ok carry on............

[John Vulich]

Reason doesn't really 'host' rebirth as such - it does allow audio to be streamed from rebirth to reason in sync - similar to the original rewire 1 protocol.
I believe that it is through hacking this capability that that petertools hammer thing works.
Personally I don't want to see reason hosting external vst/vsti, i'd rather keep the stability.

Again with the stability bullshit. If you don't want to risk stability you wouldn't have to use the hypothetical VST Wrapper now would you? I would guess that these stability concerns would only be an issue if a VSTi was loaded into the program. Certainly if the hypothetic Wrapper module wasn't loaded it's mere existence in the program's code wouldn't effect stability would it? It's not like it's a virus or something.

[headquest]

In this regard VST is certainly the most popular by a long shot.

... but only because Synth Edit and others have made it free for anyone to develop their own VST plugs. Of course that makes them the most prolific... but that is certainly no guarantee of quality or stability!!

And as I already explained, only 2 of the 5 major hosts I listed host VSTs natively. For the other three you need to combined the instability and CPU hogginess of most VSTs with... the instability and CPU hogginess of the VST wrappers, concerning which this forum is litteraly awash with complaints

[diverdee]

Again with the stability bullshit. If you don't want to risk stability you wouldn't have to use the hypothetical VST Wrapper now would you? I would guess that these stability concerns would only be an issue if a VSTi was loaded into the program. Certainly if the hypothetic Wrapper module wasn't loaded it's mere existence in the program's code wouldn't effect stability would it? It's not like it's a virus or something.

Exactly that's why I later said that a wrapper would be a good idea (although i likely wouldn't use it myself).

unless there was some kind of vst to props format wrapper - that would possibly be useful

I likes you John - but if you are going to quote me, at least quote in context & don't pick & choose selective pieces of my post in order to further any agenda you youreself may have

[headquest]

Please explain why this integration couldn't be accomplished with the VST protocol?

Their GUI's wouldn't fit into the rack paradigm, incorporating the same flexibility of routing (CV gates, etc) or the awesome ReMote mapping technology which has become a massive selling point for Reason 3.

And just what is this "concept" that we are talking about blowing anyway?

The rack, the routing, and Remote.

[Reverend Rhythm]

Was this a troll post?

[John Vulich]

... but only because Synth Edit and others have made it free for anyone to develop their own VST plugs. Of course that makes them the most prolific... but that is certainly no guarantee of quality or stability!!

From the plugin database available on this site...

http://www.kvraudio.com/get.php

640 - VST (Excluding those made with Synthedit)
249 - AU
157 - DX

I have no idea how many RTAS instruments exist but I can pretty much guarantee that it isn't more than 640.

[John Vulich]

Again with the stability bullshit. If you don't want to risk stability you wouldn't have to use the hypothetical VST Wrapper now would you? I would guess that these stability concerns would only be an issue if a VSTi was loaded into the program. Certainly if the hypothetic Wrapper module wasn't loaded it's mere existence in the program's code wouldn't effect stability would it? It's not like it's a virus or something.

Exactly that's why I later said that a wrapper would be a good idea (although i likely wouldn't use it myself).

unless there was some kind of vst to props format wrapper - that would possibly be useful

I likes you John - but if you are going to quote me, at least quote in context & don't pick & choose selective pieces of my post in order to further any agenda you youreself may have

Sorry, I didn't do it intentionally. I must have missed that remark in my haste.

[John Vulich]

Please explain why this integration couldn't be accomplished with the VST protocol?

Their GUI's wouldn't fit into the rack paradigm, incorporating the same flexibility of routing (CV gates, etc) or the awesome ReMote mapping technology which has become a massive selling point for Reason 3.

Well, the ReBirth GUI itself doesn't fit into the rack either. It works outside of Reason. The solution would be to create a wrapper module, similar to the ReBirth one, that allows for some flexibility in it's ability to deal with the audio and modulation routings of different plugins. Then just open up the instrument, in a separate popup window, if you need to edit it directly. Ableton Live has a similar scheme in how it deals with 3rd party plugins within it's GUI. FL Studio also has some interesting components, like it's Dashboard module, that are a potential example of how this could work. Perhaps a person could set up their own customized version of this hypothetical VST/VSTi wrapper and then save it as a preset for use later, like with the Combinator.

[headquest]

... but only because Synth Edit and others have made it free for anyone to develop their own VST plugs. Of course that makes them the most prolific... but that is certainly no guarantee of quality or stability!!

From the plugin database available on this site...

http://www.kvraudio.com/get.php

640 - VST (Excluding those made with Synthedit)
249 - AU
157 - DX

I have no idea how many RTAS instruments exist but I can pretty much guarantee that it isn't more than 640.

Great. But how many of them crash? How many are CPU hogs? And most importantly of all, how many of the major hosts will run them natively?

It's not that I'm against VSTs - I use them daily! But there are very good reasons why the OP identified that Reason is awesome... and the stability and efficency of it - along with the Remote mapping, searchable browsing and CV routing (none of which your average VST can do) are great. Why do you have to be a hater about it?

[headquest]

Well, the ReBirth GUI itself doesn't fit into the rack either. It works outside of Reason. The solution would be to create a wrapper module, similar to the ReBirth one, that allows for some flexibility in it's ability to deal with audio and modulation routing. Then just open up the instrument, in a separate popup window, if you need to edit it. Ableton Live has a similar scheme in how it deals with 3rd party plugins within it's GUI.

So with a bloated bugfest like Kontakt 2, I guess you would need a wrapper module with all 64 outputs right?

[diverdee]

Sorry, I didn't do it intentionally. I must have missed that remark in my haste.

See that's why I likes you - a fewkin gentleman.
I wonder what the technicalities of a vst wrapper that allows full integration into reason would be - cv connections & all that.
With the myriad possibilities in vst land, & considering the fact that cv automation in reason is limited unless using the modulation on the inputs for the combinator rotaries which allow any parameter to be cv controlled now - how practical/difficult would it be I wonder?
I also wonder how the props would view it from a marketing & also a support perspective?
Also ther is the refill & reason song formats to consider - use of third party plugins would affect the essentially universal nature of the .rps format (as one would need to own the third party plugins in question in order to play a song that featured their use).
I don't think they'll ever do it tbh.
Maybe audio input, or an audio recorder as headquest has envisaged.
Maybe some very lightweight host? but that market is pretty saturated anyway - so I can't really see that tbh.

[John Vulich]

Great. But how many of them crash? How many are CPU hogs? And most importantly of all, how many of the major hosts will run them natively?

It's not that I'm against VSTs - I use them daily! But there are very good reasons why the OP identified that Reason is awesome... and the stability and efficency of it - along with the Remote mapping, searchable browsing and CV routing (none of which your average VST can do) are great. Why do you have to be a hater about it?

Where did I say I hate Reason? Frankly you come off a bit childish by refering to my in that context. Anyway, just for the record, I think that it's a useful, well designed and extremely CPU friendly product. I said so in an earlier post. That doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement.

Anyway, I thought that you said stability wasn't a concern. Like I said before, the mere existence of the wrapper shouldn't affect Reason's stability. People can at least make the choice at to whether they would want to use it or not. It's a lame excuse.

[John Vulich]

So with a bloated bugfest like Kontakt 2, I guess you would need a wrapper module with all 64 outputs right?

Not necessarily. I'm not a GUI design expert but I'm sure that there must be some way to deal with it. Every other application has to. Perhaps the outputs would need to be limited to 16 or so. That would still make most VSTis quite usable IMO.

[Warmonger]

Also ther is the refill & reason song formats to consider - use of third party plugins would affect the essentially universal nature of the .rps format (as one would need to own the third party plugins in question in order to play a song that featured their use).

No more than the Refill format already does. Possibly less, considering that many VSTs are available for free. Besides, RPS is hardly necessary when mp3's offer small enough file sizes to be useful for sharing music. The only convincing reason for the existence of the RPS was that back when Reason 1.0 was under development, broadband penetration was low. Nowadays, I don't know a single person (no exaggeration here) who doesn't have some form of high-speed access.