confessions of a serial cubase user

[robenestobenz]

Lunch Money: That (auto-crossfade) sounds really good, it'd have to be automated in live.

Anyway, I must say, I really do love Live-- it's just so fast and intuitive to use. I must also say I have never had extensive experience with other hosts (only at friend's houses etc), so let that stand against my opinion somewhat. Even down to non-essential functions like the information box-- other hosts would be so much more accomodating to the beginner with something similar.

The effects are good (especially stuff like beat repeat and sample offset), the automation is straightforward, the elastic audio is very useful, the interface is resizable in almost every respect, midi and keyboard learn works for basically anything and is implemented in an unbelievably simple way... I could go on and on.

However, I can see that there are features present in Cubase, Sonar et al which are pretty much indigenous to those sorts of "professional" and more comprehensive hosts (lack of surround in Live is a big bugbear for some too, I'd wager). I'm guessing that with certain kinds of audio work these features would be pretty sorely missed as well.

Nevertheless, I feel my needs are covered with Live and EnergyXT for now. Although Tracktion is an object of intrigue and currently, financial unattainability.

[Lunch Money]

Tracktion isn't expensive, but it's now beyond the price range of "cheap", unfortunately. There's always the demo to fart around with in the meantime.

It's lacking elastic audio (its pitch-shifter can be used for sketching out ideas, but not final product) and loop support, which are two drawbacks. The 'rack filters' are like having eXT routing functionality withing Tracktion, which is cool, OR if you still prefer XT, all your existing presets will carry over of course.

T is also nice and easy for beginners-- first of all just because of the straightforward design, but second of all because there are tooltips available for every imaginable function. I've always turned them off even as a beginner (I hate tooltips), but they're there if you need them.

Strangely, though (or at least in MY opinion, "strange"), some people have found Tracktion's interface confusing. While I couldn't imagine a more straightforward interface, occasionally people coming from other sequencers are mystified. It's like without the drop-down menus and clickable features everywhere (T is very context-based), they feel lost. The design is almost TOO simple for some people to grasp, I think! On the other hand, I find the more COMMON experience is for people to come from other sequencers and say, "Finally! The straightforward and logical interface I've been dreaming of!"

Anyhow, I'm a bit of a T evangelist, which sometimes annoys people. I apologize. <laff> Live really DOES look quite interesting, and if for no other reason, it'd be hella fun to own for doing remixes of my own stuff. Tracktion doesn't make remixes very easily. (re-MIXING, sure, ie. levels, pan, and effects, but not "remixes" in the DJ or arrangement sense of the word).

Greg

[bluedad]

working in Live is a breeze. midi or audio..I can't add anything that hasn't already been mentioned.
I've got SX2 sitting on my shelf, but i can't see reinstalling it again.

[seamoss]

okay, so another evening with ableton and I must say that I am still very impressed.

headquest, I tried your tutorial on impulse and it WAS what I was looking for. Very nice indeed.


Now here is a question I have:

Currently I am using Cubase on my main DAW at home. I use this for mainly all my song ideas/writing....etc...etc.

I also play with a live band using my laptop & midi controller and some analog synths. Currently I am using Brainspawn Forte on my laptop and this enables me to use all my vsti/vsts in real time. Forte makes it very easy to switch "scenes" so that I can use different vsti/vsts for different parts of songs. It also easily helps me create sets before gigs.

Is there anything Ableton can do along these lines? I know it is geared for live stuff but I am not sure if that is particularly talking about improving with sequence changes and stuff along those lines. I don't use sequences live. I basically would like to know how ableton could serve as a live vst host and allow scene changes with vsti mutes, change midi routings, etc....etc midi via midi cc?

I hope that wasn't too confusing

[headquest]

Hi seamoss!

Not confusing at all - I get where you're coming from!

I don't know forte at all, so I can't compare, but I can confirm that Ableton is the biz for live use. In fact the reason that it is such a streamlined quick-'n'-easy DAW is that everything is designed to be accessible on-the-fly in a live situation.

Using it for hosting VSTs without any sequences involved, I guess I would simply create a song with the different VSTs I needed set up on different tracks. You can solo and mute tracks via MIDI CC, or even using keyboard shortcuts without an external controller. In fact, F1 - F8 are hardwired to tracks 1 - 8 for this very purpose

Another tip - and this one if you are more into the idea of using sequences at some point... as you may have discovered the "rows" in the Session View are called "scenes" in Ableton-speak. You can launch as scene in the same way as launching a clip, but using the lauch buttons in the master track. And here's the thing - if you rename the scenes (just right click and select "rename") for example 104bpm, when you launch that scene the session tempo automatically moves to 104bpm (or whatever you choose). As scenes can also be launched via MIDI CC (e.g. using any MIDI controller or foot pedals, etc) you can load an entire set as one song, set it out in a bunch of scenes, and never even go near the laptop during the concert. Very nice.

Having said all that, I must confess that personally I have used Ableton for composing, recording and music production stuff, and not yet on stage. So for more detailed advice about live use, I recommend you pop over to the Ableton General forum here:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewforum. ... ddad11f279

...where you can search for specific advice or sign up and ask of course. You can be sure of some helpful tips from those more experienced with the live aspects of using Ableton on stage.

I'm glad to hear you're enjoying using this software! Good luck, and I hope I have helped.

[robenestobenz]

Seamoss: You've hit upon one of my real disappointments with Live 5...

When the first press releases were made, I was under the impression that you'd be able to save combinations of VSTis - an extremely useful feature, considering some plugins complement eachother very well. Unfortunately, when it finally came out I realised that you can only do this with the Live inst's and effects. God knows why.

[headquest]

God knows why....

...and without wishing to tread on His/Her toes, I would hazzard a guess that it would be much more complex (and more likely to go wrong) if they had tried to make Device Groups work for every compliant VST (especially bearing in mind how many treat the VST spec "loosely").

Device Groups is a useful function however, and one that I don't think many hosts yet allow for. It would be great of course if VSTs are included too in the future (Ableton have I believe confirmed that they are certainly considering this request).

Btw, it was quite clear inthe marketing materials that Device Groups related to Ableton instruments/effects at this stage. And for anyone who has not yet tried out the Ableton instruments and effects, I stongly recommend them. I am using almost only their effects at present, and mainly they are very good. The instruments are also superb (especially Impulse, although I now use Operator a lot too).

[seamoss]

so a typical set for me would consist of say minimonsta, m-tron, charlie, kontakt and maybe a few other vsti's.

Now during this set I might use 5 different presets in minimonsta, and a few others in the other vsti's.


If I created one song with say each of these instruments, would changing scenes in enable me to have the minimonsta change presets? or would I have to have a different minimonstas loaded for each time I wanted a different preset?

I am a little concerned about this because I did notice that CPU and RAM consumtion was a little high with Ableton. Not a problem unless I am having to have 25 vstis load in one "song"

In Forte I am able to have one of each instruments I use and by switching scenes the program sends the information (preset data, midi routing, etc...). to the plug. The other thing Forte does is it has a special feature for samplers and vstis that load large data. It lets you load the sampler instrument once during the first scene and lets you use different midi routings to change instruments within that sampler so that you don't need to keep loading the sampler again during scene changes. Obviously, this saves vast amounts of time during scene changes. A must for live use.



I was a little confused about what robenestobenz pointed out. I do blend vsti's together at times. Is this not possible?

thanks again!

[headquest]

If I created one song with say each of these instruments, would changing scenes in enable me to have the minimonsta change presets? or would I have to have a different minimonstas loaded for each time I wanted a different preset?

I'm not sure. Anyone else?

I am a little concerned about this because I did notice that CPU and RAM consumtion was a little high with Ableton. Not a problem unless I am having to have 25 vstis load in one "song".

But unlike many hsots, it will only register those actually in use (because stuff like this is optimised for live use in Ableton)

In Forte I am able to have one of each instruments I use and by switching scenes the program sends the information (preset data, midi routing, etc...). to the plug. The other thing Forte does is it has a special feature for samplers and vstis that load large data. It lets you load the sampler instrument once during the first scene and lets you use different midi routings to change instruments within that sampler so that you don't need to keep loading the sampler again during scene changes. Obviously, this saves vast amounts of time during scene changes. A must for live use.

I would imagine this is true for Ableton too, but I've not tried it (see previous post!)

I was a little confused about what robenestobenz pointed out. I do blend vsti's together at times. Is this not possible?

Yes it is, of course.

robenestobenz was talking about a new feature in Live 5 which allows its own internal instruments and effects (but not VSTs at this stage) to be "locked together", basically for the purpose of saving more advanced user presets. It's much like Reason 3's new Combinator (although more basic).

This does not affect your ability to have multiple VSTs chained on one track in any combination you want, of course. It's merely about user preset management.

thanks again!

No worries!

[saturdaysaint]

Live can do it...it just does it differently. I use this feature all the time. The Live clips are essentially "tracks within tracks" and the legato function allows you to switch among them with perfect in-step timing. It is the same effect as Cubase cut/or mute sections of lanes to let other lanes "play through." Additionally, they don't even have to be part of the same recording take as lanes would have to be. Other ways in live can be done with the clip braces identifying "sub-clips" and joining them together.

Whoops, here's the link and notice that all the clips are within one track- http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/clips.htm.
What's important to me is that you can see all the miniature clips while you're comping. I've used Live many times and am not averse to thinking the Ableton way, but that's just one of the few areas where the traditional sequencers have it right - that immediate visual feedback makes comping far, far easier. Also, crossfades are pretty integral for most comping tasks. Again, I consider myself a fan of Live and I'm very aware of it's awesome advantages over other hosts, but it needs a little catching up in that area before I can switch.

[seamoss]

I am going to register on the Live forum but unfortunately I am at work and we have strong internet and email filters. I can get to the forum but I would be unable to recieve the verification email.

Obviously, I have a ton of questions to ask.


the good news is that a few months back I bought an M-Audio Firwire 410 and it came with an Ableton Lite version. Looks like I can upgrade for about $279

and if I read the FAQ right on the site, I am able to install it on my main DAW and laptop?

[dgkenney]

Seamoss: You've hit upon one of my real disappointments with Live 5...

When the first press releases were made, I was under the impression that you'd be able to save combinations of VSTis - an extremely useful feature, considering some plugins complement eachother very well. Unfortunately, when it finally came out I realised that you can only do this with the Live inst's and effects. God knows why.

True, "Device Chains" can only be saved using Ableton plug-ins. But here's away around it.

Set up a track with an empty midi clip. Add plug-ins to your desire. Save the clip(with an appropriate name so you know what it is) as an Ableton Live Clip.

When you want that combo drag the saved clip to open a new track. The track will reflect your plug-in choices

Dan

[headquest]

and if I read the FAQ right on the site, I am able to install it on my main DAW and laptop?

Yes, that's right.

Set up a track with an empty midi clip. Add plug-ins to your desire. Save the clip(with an appropriate name so you know what it is) as an Ableton Live Clip.

When you want that combo drag the saved clip to open a new track. The track will reflect your plug-in choices

Yes, that works well - good workaround!

I think that Ableton plan to expand Device Chains, Live Packs, and Live Clips in the future

[A3ntar]

Strangely, though (or at least in MY opinion, "strange"), some people have found Tracktion's interface confusing. While I couldn't imagine a more straightforward interface, occasionally people coming from other sequencers are mystified. It's like without the drop-down menus and clickable features everywhere (T is very context-based), they feel lost. The design is almost TOO simple for some people to grasp, I think! On the other hand, I find the more COMMON experience is for people to come from other sequencers and say, "Finally! The straightforward and logical interface I've been dreaming of!"

I hate Tracktion to death. I have never seen such a cluttered and non intuitive interface in my entire IT life. I felt clostrophobic using it, my heart was racing at 140Bpm ( seriously ). Live UI is not bad, but not great. CubaseSx, Sonar, and Logic have good UI.

[dgkenney]

Whoops, here's the link and notice that all the clips are within one track- http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/clips.htm.
What's important to me is that you can see all the miniature clips while you're comping. I've used Live many times and am not averse to thinking the Ableton way, but that's just one of the few areas where the traditional sequencers have it right - that immediate visual feedback makes comping far, far easier. Also, crossfades are pretty integral for most comping tasks. Again, I consider myself a fan of Live and I'm very aware of it's awesome advantages over other hosts, but it needs a little catching up in that area before I can switch.

Thanks for the updated link.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. Most of my comping is around vocals or lead guitar work and tend to be "sized" around phrases. Consequently the visual feedback was never that helpful to me. Maybe it's the years of "punching-in" on tape machines but the combo of trigger finger and Live works great for me.

Clearly the area of cross-fades is pretty rudimentary in Live so if it is important to you it may be a show stopper. It's never been a big technique for me so I don't miss it. As I said I also have Sonar 3 and Cubase SX3 for any esoteric requirements but Live has become my basic composition tool.

Dan