What is Counterpoint?

[alphabetgreen]

Wow!!!! What a great example. I could study it for hours.

This is definitely pre-Palestrina. There's a perfect 4th interval between the Bass and Soprano (2nd inversion) in the 4th(middle voices) bar. Strictly prohibited in Palestrina's time. Lots of double thirds I see.

As I say, I could study it for hours.

[fmr]

In a sense, what is usually called 'counterpoint' is a reconciliation of the traditions of imitative polyphony that flourished in the Flemish Renaissance (and came to a counter-reformational dead end in the relatively simple music of Palestrina) and the tradition of figured bass, which arose from the 'monodic' or homophonic world of early Italian opera (e.g. Peri, Monteverdi).

Actually, I disagree. The flemish polyphonic masters were doing counterpoint (what else would you call that?). Only difference is that they were not doing TONAL counterpoint, like Bach did. And counterpoint had nothing to do with the BC (figured bass). Actually, they are in opposite fields, IMO.
BC is all about improvisation and accompanied melody, and it started, as you said it, with the opera.
The flemish polyphony of Des Prez, Ockegem, Obrecht, was continued by Isaac, Schutz and the great organist Sweelinck which influenced Buxtehude and Pachelbel, which influenced Bach. And during this evolution tonality was slowly introduced.
Actually, organ music, in pair with vocal music, is a very good source for the study of the evolution of the counterpoint, as the organ is eminently a polyphonic instrument, while the harpsichord, clavichord and virginal obviously aren't.

[Download SOphist]

What is Counterpoint?

isn't it the thing that Jack Bauer does?

[fmr]

What is Counterpoint?

isn't it the thing that Jack Bauer does?

Who is Jack Bauer?

[nuffink]

What is Counterpoint?

isn't it the thing that Jack Bauer does?

I think that's needlepoint.

[Per Lichtman]

What you say about Fux and Rameau is also true of Schoenberg. Everybody (well, not everybody obviously) seems to think that he invented atonality, but this isn't true. Composers were already composing without key. He just formulated the 12-tone method in order to isolate it and present a system whereby it was impossible to write tonally.

Sorry about the digression. Had to put that in.

I feel it is also important to point out in his case, however, that he literally stopped composing for several years to develop a system for "atonal" composition because he felt that in moving to such extensive use of chromaticism, so far estranged from traditional theory, key and analysis that there was no longer a strong theoritical underpinning to the music.

The process of creating this system, which was different than the method by which other atonal composition took place at the time, was an intensely personal project. He worked on it in relative isolation and only took on students/apprentices upon the completion of the system. His earlier work is an entirely different style, an I would argue this is even true of "Pierot Lunaire".

Twelve-tone music is unique in that most musical theory is a reflection of compositional practice (somebody does it and over time it becomes common practice, gets written down, etc.) wheras the twelve-tone consisted of a (highly left brain) organizational system that came into being before any compositons that used it had been performed.

I'm not sure that he stopped composing. His '5 orchestral pieces' are non-tonal (without key) but they aren't yet atonal (12 tone/serial). And I believe he was immersed in formulating the serial system around this time. (I could be wrong though, granted).

Taken from http://www.bookrags.com/biography/arnold-schoenberg/ (though much of the information has been confirmed in other sources).

Twelve-tone System

Schoenberg was right in his fears that he would be misunderstood. Even more misunderstood was his next stylistic change, which was gradually being prepared between 1916 and 1920. During those years he completed no major compositions; instead, he worked toward a solution of the structural problems of nontonal music. One day in July 1921 Schoenberg told his pupil Josef Rufer, "Today I have discovered something which will assure the supremacy of German music for the next hundred years." It was the method of composition with twelve tones. The Prelude of Schoenberg's Piano Suite, Opus 25 (completed July 29, 1921), is probably the first twelve-tone composition.

[Ogg Vorbis]

In a sense, what is usually called 'counterpoint' is a reconciliation of the traditions of imitative polyphony that flourished in the Flemish Renaissance (and came to a counter-reformational dead end in the relatively simple music of Palestrina) and the tradition of figured bass, which arose from the 'monodic' or homophonic world of early Italian opera (e.g. Peri, Monteverdi).

Yes, "what is usually called counterpoint" is what you've said. However nothing in the period treatises on the subject support it.

But I guess I already made that point in this thread.

Moving on...Herodotus...can you help me understand the relationship between figured bass and meter? I am not sure how this fits. At first blush, the presence of meter has no implications on what intervals there might be above a bass note.

I don't doubt what you're saying, it's just not clear to me yet.

[Download SOphist]

Who is Jack Bauer?

um abraço do porto!

[fmr]

Who is Jack Bauer?

um abraço do porto!

Viva. Dois portuenses por aqui Bibó Puarto, carago. Essa do Jack Bauer é que era escusada. Tive de ir à Wikipedia para saber que era o protagonista da série 24 Horas
Claro que continuo em branco quanto à alusão

[alphabetgreen]

What you say about Fux and Rameau is also true of Schoenberg. Everybody (well, not everybody obviously) seems to think that he invented atonality, but this isn't true. Composers were already composing without key. He just formulated the 12-tone method in order to isolate it and present a system whereby it was impossible to write tonally.

Sorry about the digression. Had to put that in.

I feel it is also important to point out in his case, however, that he literally stopped composing for several years to develop a system for "atonal" composition because he felt that in moving to such extensive use of chromaticism, so far estranged from traditional theory, key and analysis that there was no longer a strong theoritical underpinning to the music.

The process of creating this system, which was different than the method by which other atonal composition took place at the time, was an intensely personal project. He worked on it in relative isolation and only took on students/apprentices upon the completion of the system. His earlier work is an entirely different style, an I would argue this is even true of "Pierot Lunaire".

Twelve-tone music is unique in that most musical theory is a reflection of compositional practice (somebody does it and over time it becomes common practice, gets written down, etc.) wheras the twelve-tone consisted of a (highly left brain) organizational system that came into being before any compositons that used it had been performed.

I'm not sure that he stopped composing. His '5 orchestral pieces' are non-tonal (without key) but they aren't yet atonal (12 tone/serial). And I believe he was immersed in formulating the serial system around this time. (I could be wrong though, granted).

Taken from http://www.bookrags.com/biography/arnold-schoenberg/ (though much of the information has been confirmed in other sources).

Twelve-tone System

Schoenberg was right in his fears that he would be misunderstood. Even more misunderstood was his next stylistic change, which was gradually being prepared between 1916 and 1920. During those years he completed no major compositions; instead, he worked toward a solution of the structural problems of nontonal music. One day in July 1921 Schoenberg told his pupil Josef Rufer, "Today I have discovered something which will assure the supremacy of German music for the next hundred years." It was the method of composition with twelve tones. The Prelude of Schoenberg's Piano Suite, Opus 25 (completed July 29, 1921), is probably the first twelve-tone composition.

Well, I did admit previously that I could be wrong. However, fair play!

[Per Lichtman]

Sorry, it's just a common a misperception and I have had to clear it up for one or two other people in the last week as well so...

[Download SOphist]

Who is Jack Bauer?

um abraço do porto!

Viva. Dois portuenses por aqui Bibó Puarto, carago. Essa do Jack Bauer é que era escusada. Tive de ir à Wikipedia para saber que era o protagonista da série 24 Horas
Claro que continuo em branco quanto à alusão

Não havia alusão, era um comentário parvo (counterpoint / counter-terrorism).
Clown-syndrome...
Um abraço!
Miguel

[alphabetgreen]

I always thought I was some sort of authority on Schoenberg ever since I wrote a controversial essay at university stating that Schoenberg did NOT invent atonality. I got good marks for it too.

Did you know that he claimed in his later years that 'pantonality' (his name for atonality) was a misnomer after all, and refused to teach it?

[Per Lichtman]

I always thought I was some sort of authority on Schoenberg ever since I wrote a controversial essay at university stating that Schoenberg did NOT invent atonality. I got good marks for it too.

Did you know that he claimed in his later years that 'pantonality' (his name for atonality) was a misnomer after all, and refused to teach it?

I did not. See it's cool stuff like that, that I always look forward to hearing.

[herodotus]

In a sense, what is usually called 'counterpoint' is a reconciliation of the traditions of imitative polyphony that flourished in the Flemish Renaissance (and came to a counter-reformational dead end in the relatively simple music of Palestrina) and the tradition of figured bass, which arose from the 'monodic' or homophonic world of early Italian opera (e.g. Peri, Monteverdi).

Yes, "what is usually called counterpoint" is what you've said. However nothing in the period treatises on the subject support it.

But I guess I already made that point in this thread.

Now first of all, I must say that I am unaware of any 'period' compositional treatises from the time of the Flemish Renaissance or the surrounding years. So far as I have been able to ascertain, the musical thinking of Ockeghem, Busnois, Josquin De Prez, Heinrich Isaac and the rest is known to us only through their work. Oh what I would give to learn how they got their cutting basses, rich pads and soaring leads, but sadly they left no treatises, nor even an interview, that allows us to pick their brains. And it is worth noting that when Fux codified the post-renaissance polyphony of Palestrina in what would become a seminal text of contrapuntal theory, Palestrina had been dead for well over a hundred years.

Moving on...Herodotus...can you help me understand the relationship between figured bass and meter? I am not sure how this fits. At first blush, the presence of meter has no implications on what intervals there might be above a bass note.

I don't doubt what you're saying, it's just not clear to me yet.

OK, I'll try to be as coherent and succinct as possible, because this is an awesome thread, which unfortunately I don't really have much time for.

OK, now figured bass is inherently monometrical. By this I mean that it implies a metrical framework that applies to all of the different parts in a polyphonic composition at the same time.

It is hard to get this across because almost all of the music made in the past 300 years is monometrical. A perfect exemplar of this is the orchestral conductor. No matter how many players are in an an orchestra, they all say 'one' at the same time. It is the common sense way of thinking about musical time to most of our minds.

Now whether you talk in terms of scale degrees and continuo, or chords, they imply that there is such a thing as a beat, and that the beat has a harmonic meaning defined by the figured bass, and that all sounds taking place during that beat exist in a specific relationship with this prevailing harmony/chord/scale degree. All of this is predicated upon an understanding of musical time wherein everyone in an orchestra or ensemble says 'one' at the same time.

But there is music that is not like this. The music of Steve Reich is not like this. Nor is much of the music of Terry Riley, or of Giorgi Ligeti, or of Frank Zappa, or of King Crimson, or of Lou Harrison or Olivier Messiaen or Ornette Coleman. In this kind of music, different musicians might say 'one' at different times. There are many, many other examples in contemporary music of this sort of thing, which I suppose we can call polymetrical composition. There are also examples from other parts of the world, especially Indonesia and India and Africa. And there are some astonishing examples of it from the European Renaissance, one of which I quoted earlier, and what the hell, lets do it again for this page:



Different parts being in different time signatures means different parts with different metrical structures. The metrical structure of a part has an intimate relationship with the melody. In the above example, the melodies in each part follow their own logic, without reference to any prevailing harmony. The harmonic element is still important, but it is much more loosely conceived.

And this is what I meant by counterpoint being a sort of reconciliation of the monodic traditions of opera and the polyphony of flemish choral music. Because counterpoint allows one to have a monometrical structure with a progression of prevailing harmonies while preserving at least some of the independent part writing of the Renaissance.