What is Counterpoint?

[Ogg Vorbis]

<deleted...it sounded like an advertisement>

[jancivil]

I always had the Stravinsky axiom as "a lesser composer borrows, a Great Composer steals".









I don't know what counterpoint is. Is it a marketing term now?

[Ogg Vorbis]

I don't know what counterpoint is. Is it a marketing term now?

I went off on a tirade that lasted five pages in Open Office "Writer" and then said I was ready to take students, but then I realized that it all sounded like a sales pitch.

There isn't a "nevermind" button, but maybe there ought to be?

[alphabetgreen]

I don't know what counterpoint is. Is it a marketing term now?

I went off on a tirade that lasted five pages in Open Office "Writer" and then said I was ready to take students, but then I realized that it all sounded like a sales pitch.

There isn't a "nevermind" button, but maybe there ought to be?

Two-part counterpoint is a bit of a strange concept and takes a bit of getting used to. You see, it's very difficult to know whether you've represented the desired chord with enough implication. Indeed, there are times whereby each voice will sound the third and fifth of the chord and omit the bass. This is perfectly admissable (according to the rules based on 18th century counterpoint which is the standard learning curve in British A-level establishments). Another strange phenomenon is the dominant 7th chord. One thinks 'how can I represent a dominant 7th chord with 2 notes'. Well, firstly it has to be in the right place. Obviously you wouldn't start your piece with it. Nevertheless if you used it immediately before chords I and VI, it would imply a cadence, and would be recognised as such IF you use the right notes, and the right notes are the 3rd and the 7th of the chord. This is because the interval between the 3rd and the 7th is a tritone (augmented 4th/diminished 5th) and it is that tritone that provides the flavour in a full dominant 7th chord.

The best way to write two part counterpoint is to first, keep the chord structure as simple as possible. Don't even think of using chromatic chords or secondary sevenths. Try to stick to chords I, IV and V, and always make sure that the 3rd is heard in one of the voices. If you first form a line of simple 4 note chords on two staves using crotchets (quarter notes), and then subtract 2 notes from each chord, usually the awkward ones in respect of a fluid horizontal melody line (always remember to keep the 3rd and avoid parallel 5ths and octaves like the plague). Once you have finished that, add passing notes (quavers/eighth notes) in between the notes that are a third apart (for example, if your violin part's first crotchet was an A and the second was a C, join them up with a B (quaver) in between.

Then you're on your way to writing some effective 2-part counterpoint.

[gambaytheunspoken]

Two distinct melodies played at the same time that compliment each other. Bach used it a lot. Have a listen to simon and gardunkel's "scarborough Fair." Counterpoint going on there in a very memorable song.

[Ogg Vorbis]

Damn you to hell, Rameau.

[fmr]

Counterpoint is what we call to music that is based solely on superimposed melodies. Therefore, you can have two voice counterpoint, three voice counterpoint, four voice counterpoint, and so on (in the Renaissance period, you had counterpoints with 16 and more voices). Harmony, when exists (it appeared slowly in counterpoint pieces) is done from the melodies. One good example of this are the luteran chorales, which Bach harmonized thoroughly. And the Inventions and Symphonies, as well as the fugues from the Well Tempered Clavier by Bach also are good examples of tonal (means harmonic) counterpoint.
The name derived from "contrapunctus", which was the primitive way of joining melodies, in the Middle Ages, where each note of the Cantus Firmus (main melody) has a note superimposed. As the notes were notated as points at those days (punctus is the latin word for points), the superimposed notes were the "contrapunctus".
Then they started to add more notes, and the contrapunctus became contrapunctus bassus (bass), contrapunctus altus (alto), and contrapiuntcus superius (sopran). The tenor has the cantus firmus (tenere is the latin word for having).

[alphabetgreen]

And rather than use cadences, each voice would have a formula that they stuck by, although some composers mixed them around. They were:

Cantisan - Soprano
Altisan - Alto
Tenorisan - Tenor
Bassisan - Bass

Just thought I would throw that in.

[jancivil]

I don't know what counterpoint is. Is it a marketing term now?

I went off on a tirade that lasted five pages in Open Office "Writer" and then said I was ready to take students, but then I realized that it all sounded like a sales pitch.

There isn't a "nevermind" button, but maybe there ought to be?

Two-part counterpoint is a bit of a strange concept and takes a bit of getting used to. You see, it's very difficult to know whether you've represented the desired chord with enough implication.

I did not know there were "desired chords" in counterpoint necessarily. I don't actually think that's the most useful position to begin from.

"Counterpoint" is a very broad term actually; are you talking about Palestrina, or JS Bach, or Schoenberg, or Stravinsky, or...?




Yeah, I'd use the nevermind button, no doubt.

[alphabetgreen]

Nice one Jancivil. Yes the concept of counterpoint between that of both Palestrina and Bach is very large indeed. One builds horizontally without key structure, and the other bases melody around a tonal chord progression (I'm leaving Schoenberg and Stravinsky out of this for the minute, because I don't have a couple of days to spare).

Now I could have given a literal description of counterpoint and said different simultaneous melodies that go their own way yet sound nice together, but I wanted to be a bit more illustrative than that, and as Bach is the first icon one learns from at school, I thought I'd start with him.

But I know exactly where you're coming from.

[Ogg Vorbis]

"Counterpoint" is a very broad term actually;

Yep, but many seem to believe it means "many independent melodies going on at once."

[nuffink]

Don't worry about it sounding like a sales pitch, post it.

[jancivil]

Yeah, but maybe he's concerned about the tone of the place, you know?

[fmr]

"Counterpoint" is a very broad term actually;

Yep, but many seem to believe it means "many independent melodies going on at once."

Although counterpoint is a very broad term (as is sonata, concerto, symphony, etc.) it IS used to classify music where the melodies (the horizontal dimension) have the lead role, instead of the chords (the vertical dimension). So, the ones that "think" it means "many independent melodies going on at once." are basically correct.
Even Bach, which wrote tonal counterpoint, had sometimes very intricate and strange harmonic progressions, just to respect the counterpoint, as it was the leading dimension. Beware that, although many Bach compositions are "contrapunctistic", that's not true for all of them. And when you are talking about counterpoint, even in Stravinsky, you are talking about "independent melodies going on at once."
Of course that, in one way or another, there are counterpoint passages in lots of essentially harmonic pieces, but no matter how broad counterpoint is as a concept, it still is what it is, and if you want to find grey areas, be aware that grey areas are the most common thing is music (it's what makes it fascinating, I think).
Counterpoint is just a technique, like so many others, that a composer sometimes chooses to use in a certain moment. It's no longer a "style" that we have to respect from the beginning to the end of a piece.

[duncanparsons]

For me, I favour Gentle Giant and Gryphon for counterpoint and contrapuntal activity...

DSP