Tough love for Amplitube... (and a partial apology)

[Kontrast13]

Glad you're finding ways that work by experimenting, zerocrossing. I also have a liking for that ppc112 cab.

One goofy thing I used to do for fun when I started learning bass was take just about any guitar amp but use the bass810 cab... and often enough, it sounded bad freaking ass.

If I had developed really structured ideas of how they should work, I'd hate amp sims... but since I love to screw around and do things in new ways, it opens up tons of options that never existed before.

[hibidy]

BTW, Glad you sussed out that bad cable.

yeah, I'd hate to think

Psst. Don't let the cable nazi's into this........remember, ALL CABLES ARE THE SAME not

[zerocrossing]

Glad you're finding ways that work by experimenting, zerocrossing. I also have a liking for that ppc112 cab.

One goofy thing I used to do for fun when I started learning bass was take just about any guitar amp but use the bass810 cab... and often enough, it sounded bad freaking ass.

If I had developed really structured ideas of how they should work, I'd hate amp sims... but since I love to screw around and do things in new ways, it opens up tons of options that never existed before.

I'm with you on that. Over the years I've had really weird rigs. For a long time I was using a Digitech 2120 preamp/effects straight out into two keyboard amps. Or running a stereo effect processor in the mono effects send of my Ampeg and taking the other half of the stereo out and run it into the PA. I don't care what it is and I love to screw with gear, but I'll reject things that sound bad, and man they're out there for sure. Ever use the amp sims that come with the Boss VF-1? Craptacular. Great sounding digital effects though, but the COSM amp sims are dismal.

So amp sims make totally sense to me. I think the first one I really dug was the Vox Tonelab SE. Oddly it had the opposite problem the VF-1 did. Good sims, lackluster effects. So, Tonelab into VF-1 and... sweet sound.

I sold that when I got Amplitube v2. It seemed to equal and often best the Tonelab and gave me insane flexibility. Anyway, I go where it make sense to go and I try not to have too many preconceptions about what a good sound should be. Hell, I've found good tones using just FabFilter Saturn. Weird, but good.

So, if anything I'm guilty of not doing enough experimenting and assuming the matched cab would at the very least be a good choice. I do know that I've played though a lot of amps in my day, Marshalls and all the rest. I worked in music retail so there was always a steady stream of new and used amps to check out. Fun! I'm pretty sure I never heard a Marshall that sounded like the S100, but I can't honestly say if I ever played though a JTM100. I probably haven't. I don't think it would have become the classic it is if it had sounded like the S100 cab though. Who knows though, maybe there was a reason Jimi turned to fuzzboxes to is sound so often.

[zerocrossing]

Might I take this time to mention recabinet 3.1



Seriously, it's just dreamy. Does it take work? Yes. But it "feels" better from the get go. Why am I bringing it up again? It's what zero said about the Sgear cabs. I DO think they are better overall. BUT, I think with recabinet you get that + 10. You can HP/LP right in the box, and there are useful eq's to "sweeten" things. Can you move the mics around and get that zipper sound ( ) NO. So what?

The one thing that will be a welcome improvement with recabient will be stereo panning. But considering how 90% of how we record guitar are, it's not HUGE. Most people pan a guitar and use a second....third........etc. But it will still be a welcome addition.

It's too hard to keep posting examples and proving it...at 49 bucks (19 for the upgrade) it's worth putting up with the lame demo limitation and trying.

I guess Recabinet is my next purchase. Enough people have raved about it at this point that I'd be a fool not to check into it. I'd love a single solution for guitar, but I'm already using Reflect for reverb ( did I meantion I hate Amplitube's reverbs?! I always have! ) so I guess I may as well explore using Recabinet if you really think it'll improve things even more.

[zerocrossing]

zerocrossing, those low-watt vintage Marshall cabs have a lot of character that may or may not sound right in a given situation. I find they can be particularly honky in some settings, and just killer in others.

When I use them, often it is in a dual cab configuration.
And as Kontrast13 has discovered, mic placement is everything in AmpliTube 3. Take some time with it, particularly while listening in the mix. The 3D mic field gives you the ability to get just the right natural tonal balance for any given situation. If the high-end is too harsh, for example, knock the mic off-axis a little (and trying a different mic sometimes doesn't hurt.) Don't settle for the mic defaults! There is a reason we give you so many choices and so much maneuverability.

BTW, Glad you sussed out that bad cable.

I'm pretty well versed in Amplitube's mic selection, there are ones I definitely avoid, but maybe they'd work sometimes. I find the whole mic placement/cab section very easy and intuitive to work with. I honestly don't know wtf Native Instruments was thinking with their version of this. I think in this case I was starting with your presets and I did change and move mics around but didn't really find what I was looking for until I went to a different cab. Anyway, lesson learned.

Part of having a giant arsenal of amps and cabs is I am less inclined to try and make something work when there's a great option a click away. It was only because I was enjoying the Marshall sim in S-Gear that I started thinking, "Why don't I ever use those Amplitube Marshall models? Then, this thread.

I'm not even totally sure the cable was "bad" but I think it just wasn't making the best contact internally in the jack. I checked it on a synth and it seemed fine.

[Kontrast13]

I think I've heard how good Recabinet is about 100 times in the last week... but I'm pretty sure it's just been hibity posting over and over Gotta try it out sometime. Never hurts to demo something and see what can come from it.

The matched cabs have got to be decent enough for the guys who picked it, but since everyone's ears are different, it won't always work. Reminds me of earbuds... some people like using them but I feel like my ears are getting raped with a nail bat ;D My tastes tend to lead me towards Orange, Fender, and JazzAmp cabs quite a bit. Sometimes even the bass cabs when I'm using the guitar.

Seems like you get serious with screwing around. Makes things so much more fun though. Pretty cool that you brought up using Saturn to get some good tones. It's been crossing my mind lately to use it to create some crazy effects.

[hibidy]

I think I've heard how good Recabinet is about 100 times in the last week... but I'm pretty sure it's just been hibity posting over and over

OMG

On a serious note though.......at 49 bones it's worth checking. I mean, I had to pay full price but at that price it can't hurt.

[davidka]

A more expensive buy, but the demo seemed to work better for me. Anyone tried the full version of this? I wonder why isn't there a crowd raving about this one!

http://www.two-notes.com/en/software/torpedo-pi-101-v2/


EDIT:

File compatibility
TSR files (Two Notes cabinets) - WoS version ONLY
TUR files (generated by Torpedo Capture)
3rd party IR's (wav/aif)

[Brian @ IK Multimedia]

I've made this point before, and I'll make it again - AmpliTube and these 3rd party IR libraries all use cab/mic impulses as their foundation. We have some extra proprietary VRM technology in there there that was originally developed to accurately model the Fender Vibratone rotary speaker, but we found it was also just as accurate for modeling moving mics as it was for moving speakers.

All of these cab sims are going to have the same high quality and ultra-realistic detail. Aside from the added functionality that AmpliTube 3's mic placement offers, the main difference is going to be your own personal preference for a particular cab impulse over another. Don't expect an additional layer of realism by substituting AT3's cabs with one, because you will likely be disappointed. You might find some new cabs you like though, which can expand your sonic palette. But then again, you might find some new cabs in the AmpliTube Custom Shop that do the same thing!

The notion that 3rd party cab IR libraries offer improved quality over built-in ampsim cabs really only applies to ampsims that use simple EQ curves to emulate cabs, and ampsims that offer few or no cab options.

[chokehold]

@hibidy:
Did I attack Dimi? I insist that I did not.

I have been into amp sims for ages, so I do know his name from countless demo tracks for countless products, commercial or free.
And credit where credit is due, he does get just about the best possible sound out of what there is to play with.

But then, "the best possible" isn't necessarily "realistic" or "accurate".
So if I attacked anything at all, I attacked the limitations and shortcomings in the available amp sims.


@Brian/IK
Thank you for explaining.
I don't know what's going on inside of AT3, but I also don't care.
(No offense intended, just being honest. I'm a guitarist and "recording guy", not a DSP programmer)

All I care about is that I, as an end-user ... in contrast to you as a company representative, don't like what AT3 does with its cabs and mics.

I haven't got all the cabs and mics AT3 CS offers, and why should I, but I have wasted quite enough cash and credits on most of the cabs and mics already, to know that I don't like the way they sound.

I am aware of the possibility to swap and move and mix microphones, and I have tested this feature extensively for hours over hours with all sorts of material.
Bit left here, little farther away there, whoops - out of phase, little nearer again... AT3's cabs sound usable on their own, when you're jamming over headphones or so, but when they're used together with other recorded "real" instruments, they just never sound right.
Hm, let's say "not real".
Or "not true to life".

First, I bypassed the preamps in AT3 and threw some freeware preamp sims and those from some other competitive commercial products before AT3's cabinets, then I tried it the other way round by putting RedWirez IRs after Amplitube - instant gratification.
I then tried other IRs as well, didn't like the ReCabinet 2.0 ones, but some other free IRs (GuitarHack, Burny Mesa, etc.) were just so much better.

Compared to AT3's cabs and mics combos, the 3rd party IRs sounded a little "dirtier", they had a little more grit and thump. AT3's just sounded sterile, flat and scratchy, no matter what I did with the mics, which one of them I chose or how I mixed them together.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that AT3's cabs are crappy and all others are fine (please read my last post to verify this), I in fact have a general problem with a missing grade of realism with ALL cab sims, even with all 3rd party IRs.
They all seem to (or definitely) lack important dynamic aspects of the signal chain, not just AT3's.

But strangely, AT3's cabs/mics sounded less useful than when bypassed and loading 3rd party IRs after AT3. Just like all other "synthetic" cabinet/mic combos, they seem to introduce an unpleasant harshness and arguable warmth by low-mid swooshing ... but in a somewhat more obvious and unrealistic manner.


The preamp sims of AT3 are another pair of socks.

Just the other night, I fired up AT3 German Gain with bypassed cab/mics and shot it through my power-amp, isolation cabinet and recorded it with a real microphone, one stinky SM57.
It sounded just SO much more alive and dynamic, as if the guitars were really plugged into a high-gain Engl amp.

So again, credit where credit is due: AT3's preamps seem to be LEAGUES better than what I experienced with AT3's cabinets. I definitely don't regret getting all the ones I have, and I will certainly continue to use them!

[zerocrossing]

I think I've heard how good Recabinet is about 100 times in the last week... but I'm pretty sure it's just been hibity posting over and over

OMG

On a serious note though.......at 49 bones it's worth checking. I mean, I had to pay full price but at that price it can't hurt.

Where is it $49? I saw on the site last night it was $99. $39 to upgrade.

http://www.recabi.net/recabinet-3/

[bk]

Where is it $49? I saw on the site last night it was $99. $39 to upgrade.

http://www.recabi.net/recabinet-3/

It was on sale until two days ago.

[wasi]

Shucks. Let me tell you it's well worth $99 too. And no need to buy 149 credits to buy it either.

[zerocrossing]

A more expensive buy, but the demo seemed to work better for me. Anyone tried the full version of this? I wonder why isn't there a crowd raving about this one!

http://www.two-notes.com/en/software/torpedo-pi-101-v2/


EDIT:

File compatibility
TSR files (Two Notes cabinets) - WoS version ONLY
TUR files (generated by Torpedo Capture)
3rd party IR's (wav/aif)

Probably the cost plus iLok 2 would drive most people away. I can't even demo the full software. I guess there's a lite free version. I will give that a go. I was against iLok 2 (I still am) but Eventide announced that they'd sell you one for $11 if you bought one of their new plug-ins so there's a possibility I'll eat my words and end up with a jerky iLok 2.

Their hardware looks really interesting, but I just watched a really long video about it where instead of showing off the sound coming from it, they figured a monotone frenchmen describing the mundane process of recording guitars was better. Why do they make me dig around to find a demo?



It does sound great, but at $1000 + the price of an amp... you're in Kemper territory but with less flexibility. I'm actually considering the possibility of a Kemper. The demos I've heard sound great, it fits in my workflow perfectly and it's expandable when you want it and how you want it, you don't have to wait for a developer to sign a deal with Marshall to do an official sim, or pick an amp to model that they deem worthy.



But getting one of those would mean putting off a new computer for a while and I'm hesitant to drop that kind of scratch on a single piece of gear when I'm really just screwing around alone in my man-cave.

[zerocrossing]

I've made this point before, and I'll make it again - AmpliTube and these 3rd party IR libraries all use cab/mic impulses as their foundation. We have some extra proprietary VRM technology in there there that was originally developed to accurately model the Fender Vibratone rotary speaker, but we found it was also just as accurate for modeling moving mics as it was for moving speakers.

All of these cab sims are going to have the same high quality and ultra-realistic detail. Aside from the added functionality that AmpliTube 3's mic placement offers, the main difference is going to be your own personal preference for a particular cab impulse over another. Don't expect an additional layer of realism by substituting AT3's cabs with one, because you will likely be disappointed. You might find some new cabs you like though, which can expand your sonic palette. But then again, you might find some new cabs in the AmpliTube Custom Shop that do the same thing!

The notion that 3rd party cab IR libraries offer improved quality over built-in ampsim cabs really only applies to ampsims that use simple EQ curves to emulate cabs, and ampsims that offer few or no cab options.

In my quick test last night I found that when I liked a Amplitube cab, it seemed no worse than using an impulse, but the ones I had at my disposal where the ones that came with S-Gear and Speakerphone. However, it seemed like in S-Gear they all sounded good (much more limited selection) and Speakerphone had some that sounded fairly bad to me as well, but lots of weird stuff to experiment with that ends up sounding non-traditional but great.

I'll check out Recabinet. Enough people (Hibidy's all I need! ) have raved or at least mentioned it that it deserves a demo.