u-he

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:50 pm

Howard wrote:
snigelx wrote:... the article I linked to above from one of the engineers on the project
Can't find the link in this thread - could you re-post?

MAybe this one:
http://www.manfreda.org/prophet-vs/birt ... prophet-vs

Ingo

snigelx · Post by **snigelx** » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:07 pm

Howard wrote:
snigelx wrote:... the article I linked to above from one of the engineers on the project
Can't find the link in this thread - could you re-post?

Sure. I lied to you...Oops.

I just quoted some bit from the article earlier

But here it is in entirety, The birth of the Prophet VS http://www.vintagesynth.com/sci/birth.txt That was printed in the instructions to WaveWrangler which was some kind of editor for the ENVs and WT's of the VS.

Double woops.. Dind't see that Ingo posted it as well. Actually Ingo's version is easier on the eyes.

hollo · Post by **hollo** » Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:18 pm

Ingonator wrote: Close to finish the VS single cycle waveforms from Augur (those from Prophet V are already finished). The waveforms in Augur seem to be less "polished" and also have more details than the ones in Prophet V (for example 2 or more "peaks" where is only one in Prophet V).

It could be interesting to compare the waveforms from the Wavestation too.
Maybe those are even better than the other two versions. With lack of a real VS i could not do the same with the "real thing".

Ingo

Thanks for the Augur links Ingo, it's very fun to compare the waves, and yes
Augur waves sound very raw, with a lot more middle/low freq than PietW waves of plenty. On the opposite Waves of plenty has very nice high freq details, i wonder if he got them from the real thing?

Edit: I was wrong about PietW, wavesofplenty made by suthnear - sorry!

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:57 pm

JUst thought it would be necessary to compare to a hardware synth and as i got no VS i took a few samples from my Korg Wavestation EX.

Here is a screenshot with a comparison (Prophet V, Augur and Wavestation EX):

In fact the Wavestation EX waveform looks very close to that from Prophet V.

In the Augur example the phase seems to be inverted.

Anyway the Augur waveform seem to contain more "details" where in the others two or even three "peaks" look like a single one.

Currently i got the free VS wavetables for the Blofeld, the complete single cycle waveforms (WAV files) from both Prophet V (EQ used) and Augur and around 15 samples/waveforms from the Wavestation EX.

UPDATE:
This is what i get when i deactivate the filter in the Wavesattion EX instead of using maximum Cutoff:

Ingo

snigelx · Post by **snigelx** » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:53 pm

The VS ROM WT's one can load into the Blofeld, are they composed of single-cycle waves from the Prophet hw synth? I was also under the wrong impression about how the waves 'mixed' OSc's are only mixing single-cycle waveforms in a harmonic fashion and not really using interpolatiosn like one hears in trad WT synthesis of PPG. Do a search for the manual and you can see they way it is described is not interpolation or wave-scanning like scanning in a WT occurs. I thought otherwise. I thought it was smarter than it is, although still very impressive idea. Then to get the right timbres it just a matter of getting the waves to transpose in the same fashion (maybe not an easy task as there were errors and artifacts in the original transpositions) and little to do with the actual waves themselves, unless you wish for very basic factory patches replication. I think based on my reading in the manual you are editing a wave by "mixing" 4 waveforms but not creating entirely new interpolations. The mixed properties are stored with any patch and recalled when a program is recalled using this "new waveform".

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:03 pm

Just finished doing all VS single cycle waveforms from my hardware Korg Wavestation EX. I had deactivated the filter which is different to using maximum Cutoff (see screenshot in my last post).

Now i have 3 versions of the VS waves which should be enough for the moment...

Ingo

snigelx · Post by **snigelx** » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:15 pm

Ingonator wrote:Just finished doing all VS single cycle waveforms from my hardware Korg Wavestation EX....

Your time and effort is very much appreciated, Ingo! Will give these a ride in the Zebra during the wknd (if there is not a lot of sunshine

)

Cheers!

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:22 pm

snigelx wrote:
Ingonator wrote:Just finished doing all VS single cycle waveforms from my hardware Korg Wavestation EX....
Your time and effort is very much appreciated, Ingo! Will give these a ride in the Zebra during the wknd (if there is not a lot of sunshine )

Cheers!

just testing the new waveforms (Augur + Wavestation) in Synthmaster 2.6 (with the vector oscillator etc., see audio demo posted some posts ago).

The Augur ones sound really different compared to the Prophet V ones. More bright and clear i would say.
With the Wavestation waveforms it sounds very similar to Augur while they sound different than the Prophet V ones.

Guess i would go with the Wavestation ones at the moment.

In a free VS bank for the Wavestation i found only a few factory sounds so maybe i'll try to replicate some more with it.

Ingo

pocvecem · Post by **pocvecem** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:13 am

I'm not surprised at the fact that VS and Wavestation waves sound very similar. The wavestation has real samples from the original and not resynthesized waveforms.
Also Dave Smith himself is the father of both harware synths.
Imo both - sampled waves and the low sampling frequency of the wavestation - keep a lot of dirt from the original. But the Wavestation absolutely sounds different than a VS. Though the hardware Wavestation has a better lowend and more "grit" than the vst. That's the reason why i keep my Wavestation keyboard besides its digital filters without resonance and the horrible patch management.

When it came out the Wavestation was also acclaimed as a substitute for the VS. Well, it absolutely is not!

Also many people seem to forget that it's not only the raw waveforms and the filters that make a sound. There's also the amp/mixer section which drives the filter input and makes a significant change in a synth's sound.

Spitfire31 · Post by **Spitfire31** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:19 am

pocvecem wrote:When it came out the Wavestation was also acclaimed as a substitute for the VS. Well, it absolutely is not!

Haha, that was the very reason that I originally got the WS keyboard - as a replacement for my buggy and chassis-twisting VS. I soon discovered that my brand new Korg didn't sound at all like the VS I sold. But it's rather nice in different departments.

pocvecem wrote:Also many people seem to forget that it's not only the raw waveforms and the filters that make a sound. There's also the amp/mixer section which drives the filter input and makes a significant change in a synth's sound.

That is probably one crucial additional reason that I couldn't stand the smooth, polite sound of the Arturia VS "emulation".

Since it's probably a hopeless task trying to encourage Joshua Jeffe to update Vector Sector, the field is still open for a really convincing VS clone.

/Joachim

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:47 am

pocvecem wrote:I'm not surprised at the fact that VS and Wavestation waves sound very similar. The wavestation has real samples from the original and not resynthesized waveforms.

Of course i know that as a long time Wavestation owner and i never purchased the Wavestation as a VS substitution...

I am still surprised about the difference of the waveforms in the discontinued free Augur VST. Are those closeer to the waveforms in the real VS or are those in the Wavestation closer?

Without access to the real ones (from the VS) it would be just guessing.

Anyway sound wise (besides the differences in the waveforms seen at the screenshots) the Augur and Wavesatation ones (at least those done with bypassing the filter) seem to sound quite similar when used in another synth like e.g. Synthmaster.

Augur itself also sounds quite different and more "raw" than Aturia Prophet V.
Sadly like Vector sector it was discontinued.

Anyway the VS in Arturia Prophet V is still a nice sounding synth even if it is maby enot 1:1 emulation.

Ingo

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:14 am

Hmmm, is this thread still related to Zebra or shall I move it to General forums?

Spitfire31 · Post by **Spitfire31** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:17 am

I think that the thread is just a somewhat roundabout but detailed and impassioned way of saying how wonderful it would be to have a method of emulating the distinctive timbres of the VS in Zebra!

/Joachim

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:21 am

Urs wrote:Hmmm, is this thread still related to Zebra or shall I move it to General forums?

I guess it was thought to do VS patches with Zebra but turned into a general discussion about VS emulations. Anyway doing the VS in Zbra stil seems to be a goal.

I already sent my waveforms (from e.g. Augur and Wavesatation EX) to two members here and AFAIK one of them converted them to Zebra format already.

I downloaded the Zebra demo again and will try to have a look.Will also got the Wav To Zebra tool myself.

I tested it in Synthmaster first as it has dedicated modules for vector synthesis (e.g. vcetor oscillator, 2D envelopes).

Ingo

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:42 am

Well, hehe, the VS was the synth that never triggered me. Crossfading a bunch of waveforms somehow never sounded exciting enough to bother. Vector Synthesis to me is, hmmm, a rather uninspiring form of mixing, so I passed up on a VS when I could have it for a rather cheap price.

In my opinion Vector Synthesis is a bit boring when concepts like Zebra's OscFX offer dynamic changes in timbre with a single oscillator.

Nevertheless, what remains somewhat exclusive to 80ies digital synthesizers is their often gritty sound, and that's not just aliasing. We might figure this out for our stuff. Some day.

u-he

KVR Audio

Prophet VS sounds with Zebra?