Ableton, all plugins cause *automation* pdc issues, very good discussion within.. lots of info!

[Davias]

I don't own ableton but maybe this would work :

everytime you add a low latency plug in on a track, u also add low latency plug on every other track, in neutral state or bypass or something... This way all your tracks will be delayed the same and the latency issue should disappear. Maybe with sends, routing or big latency plugs this wouldn't work...

Just a thought.

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[deastman]

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the problem, but I couldn't reproduce it. I'm testing on a Window 7 x64 laptop, running Live 9 through the built in audio with ASIO4ALL and a 512 buffer.

I added a drum rack and laid down a 4/4 kick drum pattern. Duplicated the track. On the duplicate, I started piling on the effects- standard Ableton effects, M4L effects, VST effects. The timing between the two tracks remained perfectly synced.

Any chance that someone could upload a project file using only included effects which clearly demonstrates the issue?

you are misunderstanding the issue entirely in this case then. I have done the best of my own ability to explain it (many times over many other topics too) and i don't think my own brain has any other way to relay it. Really sorry

Hopefully someone else can make sense of it for you. I will still try.. turn PDC off and see that every effect you are adding adds latency.. then with pdc on it WILL sync as you say but the playhead will move out of time by the precise amount of the total plug in latency, as will ALL track automation for the entire song placed anywhere, and rhythm based effects placed AFTER the latency inducing plugins. I reeally hope that helps

i have a zillion things to do video wise but i have it on my list to do and will get to it eventually. A video would probably explain it the best.

Yes, kenporter clarified the issue for me as well. Sorry for being a bit dense!

[dusted william]

I hardly every use the type of automation that really needs to be super sample acurate, but I've been testing it out, and in LIve it is very bad.

very, very, very bad.

dw

[Moka Disco Express]

+1

[memyselfandus]

I have not read the entire thread yet. Reading through right now. I have a question.


is this PDC stuff strictly for a effects?

or does this include instrument plugins?

meaning.. if you use instrument plugins with no effects? do you still get pdc issues?

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[kmonkey]

I don't know i never had PDC issues in Live(i mean pdc automation issue). I am aware of issue and i know it's real but honestly i never use so much automation apart from mixer automation and maybe some effects but it all comes to fade ins or outs.

I guess issue is more dominant in heavy FX automation and especially "modern" genres.

There is youtube demo where it is actually really well explained. I am puzzled to why Ableton do not work and fix issue ?

In past i had Cubase and FL Studio and there wasn't that PDC automation issue.

Generally Ableton does support PDC and it's working but visually (for precise sample accurate automation) it is out of sync really.

My biggest issue with live now is that v9 is terrible and buggy. Live 8 worked for me with ZERO issues, but with live 9 i can not even load some projects created in v9. that "handleonstage" error is causing a lot of issues for me and a lot of other people (according to their forum)

[j0hnny]

I'm pretty sure Live 9 has Plugin delay compensation...and live 8 doesn't.

[audioird]

Hi!! I have this windows laptop i bought in a firesale at Xmas that i still haven't used (600 bucks.. a bargain) comes with a quad 2.3 ghz IVY bridge, 8gb ram, i put a nice 480gb sandisk SSD in it, and thankfully windows 7 64 included. DPC is average 100, with wireless off, 40 no spikes! it was just a bargain gem that i fluked. Video is ATI 7670 dedicated 1GB.

Anyway i am spending some more time at mums lately again cause my health is playing up again, and occasionally i simply can't fend for myself.. the thing is it's a big house and my sister, brother in law and nieces live there, and of course being 8 and 11 they run around causing havoc.. i think they have wrecked everything electronic some way or another

I bought this laptop as my throwaway. Where as my macbook with similar specs cost me close to $3,000 in 2011, this cost 20% of that.. i don't mean throwaway in a bad sense as it is lovely.. but i would rather take that with me than lug around my macbook which is far more important to me. Hope that makes sense.. i feel like i can RELAX more with a 600 laptop when i'll be using one of my nieces rooms and i know she'll be in there whenever she wants LOL. I will also only be using my NON dongled plugins. Basically minimum damage possibilities. i will be using a 128 GB sandisk extreme usb 3 flash drive for audio.. um yeah, let's just say it's *plenty* fast and certainly faster than a 7200rpm drive that is 5 times bigger (of course not ssd but for 16 tracks of playback MORE than enough by a mile, i reckon it could do 128 tracks!)

I ALREADY own ableton, i was going to look at mixcraft for $79 but i thought why spend money? I don't use live as a main host, i tried it back when for a day, got to know all the functions, and realised i COULD.. as in i feel comfy in it..if i had to.. but i obviously never went deep enough in creating a complex mix where all these PDC issues would come to light.

So here is my dilemma. Anything i create at mum's on ableton can open in my mac and i can then re structure it in logic if i really need to. I would love to use logic but it's not possible on a mac, and i really do NOT want to take my dongles there.. on windows there are some free plugins that can replace some of my dongled stuff, where mac has no replacement for example. I am still going to be able to use my plugin alliance stuff etc though which makes me very happy

But i recently found out in a topic right here at KVR that every single instance of ANY plugin in ableton causes latency and pdc issues! I honestly always thought that if i just used zero latency plugins (of which there are many), i'd never have an issue. Now i have found out, that even true zero latency plugins, add your buffer latency to the signal for every instance!
I am guessing i will be using a 128 buffer with asio 4 all and headphones, but it's possible i may need to go to 256. Let's look at worst scenario.. 4 x 256 samples latency on a track, using just 4 zero latency plugins, will cause 1024 samples latency! as far as i understand there is NO Way around this.

Now it all makes sense why so many people argue that ableton sounds bad. They think it's the audio engine, but it's the pdc.. there must be so many phase and sync problems. HOW DO YOU DO IT! is there some tips i should understand?

I would LOVE to not buy another host, and just use what i have.. but i don't see how you guys do it, and i really must be missing something hence this topic. Every single zero latency plugin i and you add to ableton on ANY track, ANYWHERE in the signal path, adds one instance of the audio buffer latency. PDC keeps it all in sync audible, EXCEPT for automation, host tempo effects, and the visual play head (if you zoom in you'll see it goes out the precise amount of combined plugin latency. Say i have a 100ms plugin on track 1, even track 2 plays *visually* out of time)


Since any plugin in the world is going to cause this problem, how do you deal with it. Any tips appreciated.

And finally, please some info on mixcraft if anyone uses it. It claims full PDC and multi core, but i never read anything about it here, yet it looks like it's right up my alley.. just dead simple to use from the videos i have seen on youtube.

Thanks so much in advance.

If it worked, it wouldn't be called "Live".
I mean that if you reach a point where PDC is required, then you can't play live using a keyboard controlling a VSTi on one of your track.
It seems that it's not appropriate to use Ableton Live for what you are doing.

[memyselfandus]

no. that's fine memyself

@deastman, dense? hardly. I am really bad at articulating what i am trying to convey. It's my fault. cheers.

thanks! yes a video... a detailed video about all this stuff from someone is in order.

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