Ableton, all plugins cause *automation* pdc issues, very good discussion within.. lots of info!
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- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
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- KVRAF
- 8413 posts since 4 Jul, 2012 from Alesia
Best thing I can think of is to freeze all parts of your audio *Loops* while you work and mix your songs using only the built-in Ableton FX.
It's kind of a bitch to have to work this way but it is the most accurate I know of. If you do come across some kind of sync issue in your frozen audio you can use the time warp to fix it.
I think this is what most live performers do with Live like Liam Howlett from the Prodigy. I am not sure though as he also uses Reason in his setup too.
It's kind of a bitch to have to work this way but it is the most accurate I know of. If you do come across some kind of sync issue in your frozen audio you can use the time warp to fix it.
I think this is what most live performers do with Live like Liam Howlett from the Prodigy. I am not sure though as he also uses Reason in his setup too.
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- KVRian
- 1336 posts since 21 Dec, 2004
How many average tracks do you use per song with plugins on them? Just curious because I've been an Ableton user for about 9 years and have never experienced noticeable delay or latency with any songs I put out, but then I don't usually use more than 15 tracks in a song ever by using the clips for most loops, midi or audio, that I make. I use many plugins to be sure though. Some native, some not. The only time I don't loop something is if I'm doing a guitar solo and that is recorded into a clip also.
If I freeze tracks, it's only because of CPU intensive plugs.
Tons of people using Ableton without too any issues. Are you adjusting pdc on every track you add a plugin and trying to manually adjust things? I have only adjusted pdc timing on maybe two tracks on two songs in my whole span of using Ableton.
I don't get it.
BTW - I'm using 4 hardware synths and 3 other midi controllers on an i5 laptop with a focusrite interface with Ableton.
If I freeze tracks, it's only because of CPU intensive plugs.
Tons of people using Ableton without too any issues. Are you adjusting pdc on every track you add a plugin and trying to manually adjust things? I have only adjusted pdc timing on maybe two tracks on two songs in my whole span of using Ableton.
I don't get it.
BTW - I'm using 4 hardware synths and 3 other midi controllers on an i5 laptop with a focusrite interface with Ableton.
Last edited by Wormhelmet on Mon May 27, 2013 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 4867 posts since 18 Dec, 2000
I don't believe any plugin causes this.
What I do is make sure any plugin that needs to be time accurate is before any plugin that needs PDC. This takes care of it.
dw
What I do is make sure any plugin that needs to be time accurate is before any plugin that needs PDC. This takes care of it.
dw
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Echoes in the Attic Echoes in the Attic https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=180417
- KVRAF
- 12066 posts since 12 May, 2008
Unfortunately with Ableton you just really need to be aware of your routing. Specifically you need to be aware of what is your longest plug-in chain, where in your chain a rhythmic effect is located and similarly where your automated device sits in a plug-in chain. Since these things can change with the addition of devices, I prefer to live by some simple rules so I don't have to think about it:
1-Work at 128 samples (seems a good balance for cpu vs. latency)
2-Stick to plug-ins without additional latency. Then at least I know it's only buffer getting added.
3-Aim for no more than 4 plug-ins in an audio chain. Includes return tracks and master. So if I have ANY return track enabled with a VST, that counts as one for all tracks. Parallel processing doesn't count of course so it doesn't matter how many parallel devices in a rack etc. Only matters the max in a row. Track > Return with most plug-ins > Master. If you route between tracks then the chain is one track into another first of course.
-Pursuant to (3), try to use Ableton devices where possible. Generally for EQ and dynamics I'll just use Ableton effects.
-Also to help (3), I favor some combined effects plug-ins like Guitar Rig, Trash 2 and things with multiple effects within.
I think that at 128 samples with a max of 4 or 5 plug-ins in a given chain, you won't notice anything timing-wise. It's only just over 500 samples, which doesn't translate into noticeable timing issues.
Last point:
-Wait for Bitwig.
1-Work at 128 samples (seems a good balance for cpu vs. latency)
2-Stick to plug-ins without additional latency. Then at least I know it's only buffer getting added.
3-Aim for no more than 4 plug-ins in an audio chain. Includes return tracks and master. So if I have ANY return track enabled with a VST, that counts as one for all tracks. Parallel processing doesn't count of course so it doesn't matter how many parallel devices in a rack etc. Only matters the max in a row. Track > Return with most plug-ins > Master. If you route between tracks then the chain is one track into another first of course.
-Pursuant to (3), try to use Ableton devices where possible. Generally for EQ and dynamics I'll just use Ableton effects.
-Also to help (3), I favor some combined effects plug-ins like Guitar Rig, Trash 2 and things with multiple effects within.
I think that at 128 samples with a max of 4 or 5 plug-ins in a given chain, you won't notice anything timing-wise. It's only just over 500 samples, which doesn't translate into noticeable timing issues.
Last point:
-Wait for Bitwig.
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Echoes in the Attic Echoes in the Attic https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=180417
- KVRAF
- 12066 posts since 12 May, 2008
Some reasons why you might not notice anything:Wormhelmet wrote:How many average tracks do you use per song with plugins on them? Just curious because I've been an Ableton user for about 9 years and have never experienced noticeable delay or latency with any songs I put out, but then I don't usually use more than 15 tracks in a song ever by using the clips for most loops, midi or audio, that I make. I use many plugins to be sure though. Some native, some not. The only time I don't loop something is if I'm doing a guitar solo and that is recorded into a clip also.
If I freeze tracks, it's only because of CPU intensive plugs.
Tons of people using Ableton without too any issues. Are you adjusting pdc on every track you add a plugin and trying to manually adjust things? I have only adjusted pdc timing on maybe two tracks on two songs in my whole span of using Ableton.
I don't get it.
-Don't often have many plug-ins in a row? Total track count doesn't matter because parallel chains don't add any problem (other than cpu consumption)
-Might not have fast rhythmic effects or automation in devices towards the end of your audio chain.
Many people would never see an issue due to one of these reasons. And sometimes someone might have a track that doesn't sound quite right, but they might b lame the track or ditch, not knowing why the timing is weird...
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- KVRAF
- 8413 posts since 4 Jul, 2012 from Alesia
Reaper is actually pretty straight forward, I am trying the demo and so far it's not bad. I think its actually easier to get around in than Logic, so Theo for you it will probably be a breeze to pick up.TheoM wrote:i just realised mixcraft is out. Windows only.No translation back to mac. And i might test some bootsie and synthedit/maker stuff for fun, but again i really need to stick to stuff that is also mac so my project when home opens identically.
i better step in quickly before someone recommends Reaper, as i know it will be recommended in a genuine caring way to HELP me, but i better say in advance it's not an option (i personally hate it to put it mildly).
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- KVRian
- 1336 posts since 21 Dec, 2004
Electronic - DnB, Dubstep, Downbeat, House, IndustrialTheoM wrote:what sort of music do you do though? i would be ok with it for my slower stuff.Wormhelmet wrote:How many average tracks do you use per song with plugins on them? Just curious because I've been an Ableton user for about 9 years and have never experienced noticeable delay or latency with any songs I put out, but then I don't usually use more than 15 tracks in a song ever by using the clips for most loops, midi or audio, that I make. I use many plugins to be sure though. Some native, some not. The only time I don't loop something is if I'm doing a guitar solo and that is recorded into a clip also.
If I freeze tracks, it's only because of CPU intensive plugs.
Tons of people using Ableton without too any issues. Are you adjusting pdc on every track you add a plugin and trying to manually adjust things? I have only adjusted pdc timing on maybe two tracks on two songs in my whole span of using Ableton.
I don't get it.
BTW - I'm using 4 hardware synths and 3 other midi controllers on an i5 laptop with a focusrite interface with Ableton.
I use 10 - 16 synths per project, and around 16 audio tracks. it could be larger, that's average.
Also Industrial Metal, Nu Metal
On average, maybe 6-8 midi tracks and another 6-8 audio tracks. With Geist grouped tracks also besides those. I have the grouped Geist tracks collapsed though usually. Triggering a lot with launchpad.
Pretty much anything that comes to mind. I rarely use more than 6 synths in a song and several fx plugins along with samples and outboard gear. Sometimes instead of freezing for CPU saving, I sample my vst's and bounce them into an audio track. Depends on the synth and how much a hog it is on CPU, but even all that, I don't notice the latency getting worse with every instance of plug.
Sounds weird that your ASIO latency and buffer size would be changing that drastically. Maybe try some interface other than using ASIO4All and built in sound card. I've always used USB interfaces since my first purchase of a Tascam US428 back in 2000. Have gone through several and they just keep getting better and better. I also use 128 samples as standard, but I am on 24 bit 48KHz recording for everything and still dither to 16/44 for final.
I'm sure my neighbors dogs and cats would enjoy the nuances of 24/96, but I don't need that. My drive is a standard 5400 rpm laptop drive too.
The additional sample latency you are describing seems very strange.
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- KVRAF
- 4867 posts since 18 Dec, 2000
I just did an experiment again.
As long as I keep any plugins that are important to have accurate timing. ie a gater or something, I put first in the chain.
After that I can add on as many plugins I want and everything is still in time.
dw
As long as I keep any plugins that are important to have accurate timing. ie a gater or something, I put first in the chain.
After that I can add on as many plugins I want and everything is still in time.
dw